[ndjshe3838]

After watching a bunch of reviews I feel like the eyes on the outside is the “Touch Bar” of the AVP.

Something that sounds cool in theory but Apple will eventually drop in future models as it just adds extra complexity/cost for little benefit.

[dmix]

An extremely late model feature that marginally impacted UX for a subset of users but deeply upset a diehard subset (of a subet of) nerds philosophically? Which then got dropped the next major product cycle?

Hate Apple's business mentalility as much as you want - or even predict another market entrant dominating AR goggles later - but Macbook remains the best in class for a good reason. And you don't get there without Apple understanding you don't mess with what works, aka listening to customers.

Admitting you're wrong is one of the virtues most disregarded in our industry. It should be praised not scorned. Especially when all of us software engineers are common victims to cool new fancy tech and getting overly excited about it while disregarding IRL usecases or overvaluing our ability to adress "short term" trade offs via upgrading, and then fixing fundamentals far too late for customers to care.

[Almondsetat]

>Admitting you're wrong is one of the virtues most disregarded in our industry.

From 2007 onwards (but some could say eben before that) and with Ive's power, Apple has lost all credibility by being utterly unwilling to admit their shortcomings. We had to wait years and years for the butterfly keyboard to drop, for magsafe and SD slot to be reintroduced. If for the next 10 years they go back to making their products more functional like they did in the 90s and early 2000s then maybe I'll reconsider

[jodrellblank]

> "Apple has lost all credibility by being utterly unwilling to admit their shortcomings. We had to wait years and years for the butterfly keyboard to drop, for magsafe and SD slot to be reintroduced."

How long did you have to wait for Google to revive Reader, for Reddit to undo 'new Reddit', for Microsoft to revert the Windows UX hodgepodge and Microsoft account requirement and telemetry, for Facebook to put your timeline back to friends and chronological order without ads, for Linux distros to remove SystemD, and all the other much-maligned changes (Google News, Twitter timeline, Wayland, Ubuntu snaps, Google Maps UX, car manufacturers and touchscreens...)?

"Apple took a long time to fix their disliked changes" has to go against the backdrop of "other (tech) companies never do it at all".

Here is Apple's global revenue of sales from Mac computers, quarterly, 2006 to 2024: https://www.statista.com/statistics/263428/apples-revenue-fr...

Can you spot the 'butterfly keyboard' or the 'touchbar' in there? The drop in sales forcing them to change? I can't. 2015, 2016 (touchbar), 2017 and 2018 look pretty similar to me.

[arrrg]

I remember it differently. In my mind NeXT-Apple – while being perfectly willing openly eviscerate pre-NeXT-Apple – has always been extremely unwilling to admit any fault.

I see consistency, not a trend. Maybe a slight trend towards a softening, towards being more willing to admit fault.

Whether it’s brushed metal interfaces or butterfly keyboards, Apple isn’t good about admitting fault. Most of all openly.

However, my experience is also (and I don’t think you can be successful for so long without that) that they are still reactive. Maybe sometimes a bit slow, maybe without saying they did something wrong (just quietly fixing it), but NeXT-Apple does eventually change shit things.

Except, obviously when it’s deeply tied to something they hold strategically very dear. Then they are completely unable to.

Overall my main point is that I don’t see a trend where you seem to be seeing one. Especially not post 2007.

[eloisant]

The Macbook are great because they finally undid the stupid changes of the 2016 models.

Touchbar, no HDMI port, keyboard that sucks... Most of my coworkers prefered to keep their older laptop than getting new ones, even though it was at no cost for them because paid by the company.

[vosper]

> Hate Apple's business mentalility as much as you want

I didn’t see anything about hating Apple’s business mentality in the post you’re replying to.

I think you’re both right, but you erected a bit of a strawman there.

[justsomehnguy]

> you don't mess with what works, aka listening to customers

Reminds me of "any customer can have any colour as long as it is black". People are still singing praises for not needing to fumble with the earpiece cords, for slowing down the phones and for the great ecosystem of multiple converters.

[mstade]

I'm one of those (there are dozens of us!) who actually liked the Touch Bar and not only that, deeply regret Apple giving up on it. I found it eminently useful to have contextual controls I could use rather than those non-descript Fn keys I don't really ever use.

It wasn't perfect, for example the fact that it was just a single bar meant it was hard (but not impossible) to use accurately without looking, but to me it really was a step in the right direction.

I hope they bring it back at some point, maybe in a way that appeases the Fn crowd as well so we can all be happy. Maybe a few physical buttons with an embedded screen a la stream decks, and a smaller bar in the center for more fluid things? I don't know. All I know is I miss it dearly.

[rjsw]

The Apricot PC from 1983 had function keys with an LCD display above them that applications could use to label the functions.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apricot_PC

[mstade]

Neat, today I learned! Sadly no photos on that article, but I did find one here: http://www.computersammler.de/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/IMG...

Ahead of its time, clearly!

[ShamelessC]

It’s still available on certain models, right?

[mstade]

I don't think so, at least not in the Pro line up and while I do very much like the Touch Bar, I like M3 Max a lot more. :o)

[goosedragons]

No, it died when they discontinued the 13" MBP with the launch of M3.

[rebuilder]

I feel it depends on whether they can get it to work well enough not to be creepy and weird. I think the reasoning is pretty obvious, most people will not wear huge goggles that cover half their face outside a private setting, it's just too socially offputting. So if you want to do AR out in the wild, you have to have some way of showing the face underneath, IMO.

IOW, if Apple can't get the front display to work, their product will be limited to office and solo entertainment use.

[prawn]

That's a good comparison. It strikes me as a visual differentiator as much as anything, which is a shallow purpose. I'd initially assumed that they'd have some grander plans for it, but I assume the lenticular aspect implies that it's not going to be used for any sort of display that isn't inset an inch or two? e.g., it can't show a ghostly reverse view of what someone is seeing, or a visible HUD, or a digital effect (imagine a security guard wearing this, and the display is showing a "scanning, scanning" effect - cool, not useful...).

And another confounding thing is that it might've been a pro feature you introduced after a base model, but if the eventual non-pro edition has a plastic front without Eyesight, and it's cheaper and lighter, most people will be happy about that.

Ultimately, I think they just decided that it was worth the trade-offs to instantly have a headset that looked different and more futuristic than each competitor. They had to make a splash.

[astrange]

It is used for some effects - it flashes when you take a photo, and it guides you through face scanning in initial setup.

[dharmab]

The flash could be a white LED.

Apple has some other devices which require another device for setup, so it wouldn't be unusual for them. They could also offer setup at an Apple store.

[astrange]

> Apple has some other devices which require another device for setup, so it wouldn't be unusual for them.

Hmm, I think that'd be pretty difficult because you can't guarantee the camera on another phone is good enough, unless you require everyone to have a phone from the last 1-2 years.

[dharmab]

You could display instructions on the phone and still use the depth camera on the device, which is presumably used for tracking anyway.

[pests]

Its not for you, its for everyone around you.

/Apple

[shermantanktop]

I put my MacBook down in front of me, ready to use it. But for me, the owner and user, the apple on the lid is upside-down.

I open the lid and look at the screen. Now the apple is right-side-up, for everyone else to look at.

I love MBPs but when I notice that it makes me think I’m secretly participating in a promotional video set in a coffeehouse full of hip people with loud sweaters and knee high boots.

[arcanemachiner]

I mean, it would look pretty dumb if the logo was upside down while the product was in use. Particularly to appease the person who can't even see the logo while they're using the product.

[pests]

Who cares how other people see it? This always messes me up to. I want to place it down with the logo correctly orientated for _me_, the owner of the device.

Like you said, once I flip it up and its wrong, I won't be able to see it as I'm using the product.

[throwaway11460]

I care. Used to have a ThinkPad and thought it's super dumb that's it's upside down all the time.

[mathieuh]

Nevertheless that's how it used to be https://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/22/tech/gaming-gadgets/apple...

[shermantanktop]

If Apple can put fake eyes on the outside of a VR headset, they can probably put a magically rotating apple logo on the lid.