[lolc]

Sure as long as people believe in Bitcoin it will keep existing. Like other currencies.

I can see the inertia argument. Why switch when it works. I still don't see the store of value argument when Bitcoin requires such exorbitant amounts of energy to keep up. That's a tax on the value. "Look how much energy it's using, it must be worth a lot!"

[jonahbenton]

Yeah, the store of value idea is pretty abstract and most people are completely unfamiliar with the various functional aspects that make money in general a store of value, or, rather, a lack of store of value, given the pervasive practice of currency inflation practiced by every central bank.

People can wrap their heads around there being "value" in an "asset" because it has "revenue streams" associated with it- that's what property and being a landlord is about. You can charge rent, so your property has value. That is very familiar because everyone either owns property or rents property. And then they look at BTC and are like- there are no revenue streams, any "value" is just made up.

Gold, a scarce/low supply inflation asset, and former money, is a good mental model for BTC, but it is completely unfamiliar to most folks, and not even the notion of metal coin being intrinsically valuable applies in any economy any more. In fact if anyone thinks about gold, they probably think people who put value into it are deluded.

People also can understand different currencies having different relative values, some being stronger, some being weaker. Why that is is generally a complete mystery. People think of strong currencies coming from "strong" countries with "strong" economies and weak currencies coming from "weak" countries with "weak" economies, where strong and weak roughly correspond to military capability and economic industrial capacity and diversity.

There is some truth in that mental model, but since BTC is not really "used' as a currency, it doesn't get to be slotted in to the currency mental map.

The actual function that BTC is starting to serve and that is critical to the functioning of all modern economic entities, whether governments or private enterprises, the notion of a "financial settlement layer", is completely unfamiliar. So yeah. It is hard to get traction when the machine is mysterious, to abuse a metaphor a bit.

The unnecessary energy waste argument though is an interesting one, eg where BTC is wasteful like just running your A/C unnecessarily or whatever. The most relevant comparison is looking at something called "home idle load" which in the US is basically the background appliance energy use. BTC total electricity use is in fact a tiny fraction of home idle load, which people don't really get exercised about and many when buying new appliances pay little or no attention to.

If one doesn't see the purpose for the use of BTC energy- which again is an unfamiliar concept of the need for "security" for a system of record- people do see the purpose for the wasted home load energy. They need home appliances, they just wish they were more efficient. That BTC mining becoming more efficient would not result in the network using less energy, in fact, the opposite would occur- this is also strange.

Anyway- I agree with you, it is a set of completely novel concepts that interoperate in ways that are very different from existing related and familiar mental models.

That is why to my mind the only way "in" to arriving at an understanding is to look at money- all moneys- as technology, as technical machines that are different implementations of accounting rules.

BTC is a "store of value" "secured" by burning energy because it is an asset system of record, a ledger, that uniquely for the first time in human history cannot be changed either directly or indirectly (e.g. by inflation) by a political actor who "governs" it. The "value" of a BTC is mathematically related to the cost of energy, and to the demand for use of that sort of ledger. What we have seen is that there is significant and growing demand for this sort of ledger, a ledger that is independent of the political processes that exist in every government, and were some problem with BTC itself to emerge, there are now different implementations of the idea that this demand would shift onto. But most of the brains that have the capacity to study and find such problems in BTC's implementation have done so and have not yet found them, so its value is really as the best known solution to a problem that we didn't know we had, and now we do.

Not sure if that makes sense. Thanks for the engagement.

[lolc]

I don't like the comparison to gold, because gold just sits there. It's a stable element. Bitcoin needs a variable amount of watts for upkeep. Who is paying for those watts and why?

If we're talking about the value of a currency, we're talking about what we can get in exchange for it. And when we talk about the store of value, it's what we can get in the future. With Bitcoin, we know it must burn energy, so we can get something only less that energy. The currency may get more "believable" due to the burning, when you look at sacrifice as commitment. But what are they committing to? Burning more in the future, because they now have coins they want to keep their value?

The funny thing is that most people trade in virtual Bitcoin they don't control. Because it's more comfortable and the ledger doesn't support the volume. So they need a government to assert their claim on their coins. I guess one can't even get Bitcoin from their ETF and needs to round-trip to some other currency.

The market is settling out of chain, because it's cheaper.

[jonahbenton]

A useful contribution, another attempt to quantify the cost of attacking BTC, which is "defended" in part by burning energy.

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4727999

[jonahbenton]

Thanks for the engagement. Not sure if you are asking rhetorical questions to make a point about why BTC seems pointless. I don't necessarily disagree, it's speculative. But for the sake of clarity will say that I think there is a real innovation in BTC and those questions, rhetorical or not, do slightly miss the framing of the innovation.

Will try it this way. The store of value is a derivative result of the actual innovation, which is- BTC for the first time is a computationally secure mechanism that provides a system of record, the contents of which are somewhat resistant to political attack and manipulation.

A system of record is the basis on which rule of law exists, the basis for accounting and financial transactions, the basis for property, etc. Proof of Work vs Proof of Stake vs others as the "costs" for maintaining those systems of record, are experiments, empirical discovery processes to see which one(s) over what timeframe hold water.

Specifically to the points:

> BTC vs Gold

Yes. BTC is a technology that has wider use cases than gold. Store of value is just one use case.

> Who is paying for those watts and why?

Right now, people who want to make money, it is economically viable to turn stranded energy into "mining". Who is benefiting from the use of the ledger for store of value and medium of exchange? Often, not always, elements considered criminal by most governments as well as people whose legitimate needs are not being met by their governments.

> store of value...we can get something only less that energy

This is where I think the disconnect between the mechanism that BTC is, and these "rhetorical" questions, is greatest. BTC is a system of record platform. We have lots of other ones. All systems of record require upkeep. They are out there, they are expensive, we don't think about them. They are just people's jobs. Every county has a system for property and title maintenance. Every single financial institution has a ledger- many ledgers. etc.

Many of these ledgers are private. Oracle, the database company, originally became a big business on being the underlying mechanism for millions of private systems of record around the world. In every one of those ledgers, there is a DBA who can do UPDATE X SET VALUE = Y WHERE KEY = Z and often does- certainly "legitimately" governed by the various policies and protections and business rules and so forth that apply to the ledger. But sometimes those UPDATE SQL statements are "illegitimate" and those often occur when the political and governance mechanisms in the business or in the country are breaking down.

There isn't any of that SQL manipulation in BTC. Storing asset holdings is again, just one use case. Attestations, like on off-chain ownership, are another.

And to be sure:

> The market is settling out of chain, because it's cheaper

Absolutely- or rather, there is a lot of implicit cost hiding and inertial convenience in existing systems, as one would expect. And they work "well enough" in a "worse is better" sense. BTC may be too good, too "perfect", too expensive, as a system of record, long term. We'll see.

Hope that makes sense. Cheers.

[lolc]

My questions are not rhethorical in the sense that I do wonder what makes people think Bitcoin represents something useful.

At the same time I have a hard time accepting that people could see use in the inherent waste of energy. And it irks me when it's framed as use of "stranded energy". Because that's far from reality.

I've heard two voices so which is it to you? Is Bitcoin useful now and worth the lost energy? Or is it an experiment of an interesting tech gone too far?

[jonahbenton]

I think it's here to stay. I buy the thesis that money is a technology, and BTC is a step in that evolution. Whether I think BTC is "worth the lost energy" is not really a useful question in that larger context. It is a technology that cannot be legislated or controlled to the point of shutdown, even by/in China. As a technology it has unique use cases, so even in the face of political pressure it will just shift and move and crop up in new contexts. It is a virus we are stuck with now. It can't be unmade.

Relative to other blockchains, like PoS ETH, etc- the question of whether BTC is "worth the lost energy" does have meaning. I think when one looks at the full spectrum of use and failure cases, the "lost" energy is an important part of the value proposition that BTC as technology offers. I don't see ETH or other PoS replacing it. Instead they are kind of complementary.

As a technology, like all technologies, BTC certainly has costs and externalities. Money as a technology is as important, say, as transportation technologies. So look at cars. Cars powered by internal gas-fueled combustion engines could definitely fit into the classification of "experiment of an interesting tech gone too far" given the incredible waste, ecological and sociological damage, and climate impact car-based travel and -based societies incur that, for instance, are lessened in mass transit-based societies. But we are stuck with cars, their global use continues to grow, and we're adapting, introducing and scaling electric, more efficient materials for roads and the vehicles themselves, safer automated driving, etc.

There is no going backwards. BTC and its ilk are part of the future, for both good and ill, IMO.

Specifically as a store of value, I do think BTC has a bright future. I have a small portion of my net worth in BTC, small because there are still non-nil risk and failure cases that could impact it specifically, and diversity across risks is important. It is also important to understand what one is getting oneself into in terms of one's investments. It is an "active" investment, not "passive." People who are looking for passive-like benefits should not look for them from anything in the "crypto" space.

[lolc]

Well thanks for answering! I still can't see the "value proposition". It feels weird when Bitcoin's properties are posed as sort of a natural law. Like when people compare it to the rareness of gold. Even though it's a cultural artifact!

One thing I'm wondering: did you acquire actual Bitcoin, or title to it?