[lolc]

My questions are not rhethorical in the sense that I do wonder what makes people think Bitcoin represents something useful.

At the same time I have a hard time accepting that people could see use in the inherent waste of energy. And it irks me when it's framed as use of "stranded energy". Because that's far from reality.

I've heard two voices so which is it to you? Is Bitcoin useful now and worth the lost energy? Or is it an experiment of an interesting tech gone too far?

[jonahbenton]

I think it's here to stay. I buy the thesis that money is a technology, and BTC is a step in that evolution. Whether I think BTC is "worth the lost energy" is not really a useful question in that larger context. It is a technology that cannot be legislated or controlled to the point of shutdown, even by/in China. As a technology it has unique use cases, so even in the face of political pressure it will just shift and move and crop up in new contexts. It is a virus we are stuck with now. It can't be unmade.

Relative to other blockchains, like PoS ETH, etc- the question of whether BTC is "worth the lost energy" does have meaning. I think when one looks at the full spectrum of use and failure cases, the "lost" energy is an important part of the value proposition that BTC as technology offers. I don't see ETH or other PoS replacing it. Instead they are kind of complementary.

As a technology, like all technologies, BTC certainly has costs and externalities. Money as a technology is as important, say, as transportation technologies. So look at cars. Cars powered by internal gas-fueled combustion engines could definitely fit into the classification of "experiment of an interesting tech gone too far" given the incredible waste, ecological and sociological damage, and climate impact car-based travel and -based societies incur that, for instance, are lessened in mass transit-based societies. But we are stuck with cars, their global use continues to grow, and we're adapting, introducing and scaling electric, more efficient materials for roads and the vehicles themselves, safer automated driving, etc.

There is no going backwards. BTC and its ilk are part of the future, for both good and ill, IMO.

Specifically as a store of value, I do think BTC has a bright future. I have a small portion of my net worth in BTC, small because there are still non-nil risk and failure cases that could impact it specifically, and diversity across risks is important. It is also important to understand what one is getting oneself into in terms of one's investments. It is an "active" investment, not "passive." People who are looking for passive-like benefits should not look for them from anything in the "crypto" space.

[lolc]

Well thanks for answering! I still can't see the "value proposition". It feels weird when Bitcoin's properties are posed as sort of a natural law. Like when people compare it to the rareness of gold. Even though it's a cultural artifact!

One thing I'm wondering: did you acquire actual Bitcoin, or title to it?

[jonahbenton]

Re: cultural artifact- yes, it is, but- if you are familiar with "mechanism design"- BTC is a game that incentivizes and rewards narrow-only adherence to the rules that are in fact established by culture/behavior and seemingly could be easily changed- but won't be, because the incentives are all aligned against change. This is kind of how "inertia" in the sense from earlier in the conversation comes about. And that the game was structured this way by the author "Satoshi" I think, again, is a genius-level innovation. The first solution to the Byzantine Generals problem. Now we have a lot of them but that one was first.

In the crypto space there is data to quantify the cost of divergence. People who want to just get off the train- fine- there are others willing to play/drive.

Re: actual BTC vs title- the BTC I count is that which I only have title to, e.g. held by a custodian. Yes, not your keys, not your coins- but as both a technologist who has had to manage- and has lost data- and as someone also with a background in the financial space- custodianship is one of those essential cultural/behavioral features- it only works if people follow certain rules, and those who do not are punished. My custodians have been around for a while and are I believe properly incentivized. As such they will be better suited to asset management than I am, as a single point of failure. Once more mature multisig/social auth workflows are worked out I will probably move to those. I am lucky to have partners who can play parts in those.