[Taganov]

Japan is insane on the paperwork front. The amount of stuff my wife has to deal with (because my Japanese is frankly terrible) for basic processes is mind numbing. Things like having to write out your address and contact info on five different forms for one appointment, visiting multiple offices to submit paperwork in for the same process, etc.. Moving apartments (heaven forbid it is to a different city government) involves weeks of straight up administrative work from one person in the household.

[2cynykyl]

Having just spent many months in Japan, I can confirm this...the paper work was so involved it could have been satire. To change our address on our residence cards we need to do 'move out' paperwork in the old ward and bring that to the new one. Each visit takes the better part of a day. Dozens and dozens of people are working intensely behind the counter to service just a few customers.

Eventually I came to this explanation: their culture is obsessed with perfection, from perfectly paved roads to perfectly preserved temples to perfectly presented food, etc...but this pursuit of perfection in the hands of bureaucrats leads to processes where everything is captured in detail, approved by multiple people, etc. Basically, in the eyes of a bureaucrat, 'perfection' is a rock-solid paper-trail rather than a frictionless experience for the citizens.

[pembrook]

I have a similar working theory.

This is a problem in many formal, detail-and-rule-obsessed cultures. Germany, like Japan, is lauded for its industrial engineering/manufacturing — but has the exact same hilarious obsession with government paperwork.

Meanwhile, more creative and permissive cultures — like say, Sweden (outsized influence on global fashion/culture/tech given its size), have far less paperwork.

[thanatos519]

Canada isn't so detail-and-rule-obsessed, but their civil service is friendly and inefficient. I much prefer the kind and well-executed Dutch bureaucracy, even as an expat here. Filing my taxes, even in a year in which I bought a house, took less than an hour. Canadian taxes were comparatively byzantine!

[numpad0]

That explanation is spot on. Japanese culture is indeed obsessed on perfection to the point it almost touches my Japanese nerve that "forms" outside Japan are just Word documents with brackets and underscores, that's just too casual! That's not what a form is(well, it is...)

> ... than a frictionless experience for the citizens.

And this is spot on as well. Most Japanese barely understand the need for that; seeking better experience is, basically, seen as a sign of weakness. Way more attention and cost are spared for preventing what are seen as improper and illegitimate, than seeking paths of least resistances or goals at all. Everyone's process people always.

[skizm]

It sounds like they're all (government officials) just trying to keep their obsolete jobs alive by clinging to old methods of doing things under the guise of it being more reliable. Dozens of people don't need to service a few customers for perfection. The opposite. That's too many cooks in the kitchen. They need fewer people and fewer processes. The more convoluted the process, the higher likelihood of screw ups.

[duxup]

Is it the case in japan that they're "trying to keep their obsolete jobs alive"?

I find some people just love process and bureaucracy for its own sake and will ad it endlessly because they think it is their job, but not out of some effort to keep jobs going. There are countries where government spending is a political issue and a way to satisfy constitutions and keep things afloat, but Japan doesn't strike me as one of those.

[joenot443]

That's a really well presented synopsis, it matches well to the anecdotes I've heard over the years.

How do you think this impacts the private sector? When delivering to a client, are similarly laborious levels of perfection expected?

[bemmu]

I live in Japan so deal with some of this. The attitude I've adopted is that the government officials are giving me free Japanese speech practice.

[DizzyDoo]

A week ago I just so happened to look up some of your older blog posts and Candy Japan articles that you had written, it was an enjoyable reread!

For anyone else, here are some links:

https://www.candyjapan.com/life-in-japan

https://www.candyjapan.com/behind-the-scenes

[FirmwareBurner]

>Japan is insane on the paperwork front.

Worse than Germany?

[juujian]

I know Germany always catches a lot of flack for bureaucracy, but changing my address in G was essentially pain free. The most adverse circumstances I have definitely encountered in the US of all places... Having rules is one thing. Having processes that are borderline broken, that's the real issue.

[cnasc]

The fun thing about bureaucracy in the US is that you never know what to expect. Half the time it’s a kafkaesque hellscape, but the other half you come away astonished at how smooth and painless the experience was

[duxup]

I think this is somewhat helped that a lot of bureaucracy is split between federal and states. States aren't perfect by any means, and sometimes introduce extra steps if both state and federal are involved, but they also seem less inclined generally to have to consider a whole nation of people and are happy to have you fill out one form that hasn't changed much for 40 years and ... that's it.

It's certainly an interesting phenomenon how simple some things can be.

[juujian]

They wanna keep you on your toes :D

I'm doing taxes for the first time this year, wish me luck!

[kmlx]

in order to change my address in the UK all I needed to do was to either send an email with some bill attached or just call (depending on the service).

[lukan]

What legal battles do you have to fight, to move apartements?

I remember, I had to file one paper from the landlord and my ID and that was it. Took 5 minutes.

[JD557]

I think you just need the Wohnungsgeberbestätigung from the landlord and fill the registration paperwork at the Bürgeramt (which, depending on your city, might be a bit hard to get an appointment), you might also need to take care of the TV bill stuff.

While not awful, comparing to Portugal, where I just need to register in a website an then wait to get a confirmation code by mail, it feels like going back to the stone age.

[ghaff]

And then there's the US where is no legal requirement to have a permanent address even if, as a practical matter, you sort of need at least a quasi one.

[mytailorisrich]

Why do you need to "register" your address? Why do you need any of this?

I've found that's the question to ask with paperwork.

For instance, France is also extremely bad regarding paperwork and administrative red tape and people are so used to it that many can't imagine that many of it is not actually needed for society to function. I noticed when I moved to the UK: Suddenly all that was absolutely necessary to protect civilisation and the Republic (I only exaggerate a little bit) did not even exist and everything still ran smoothly.

Telling example: During the Covid lockdowns, the French administration decided that people had to fill and sign an official form to keep on them every time they left home. Basically "I swear that I am only doing my daily excercise. Date, signature" to be shown to any police officer who might ask, or "zut alors" you're nicked.

[FinnKuhn]

Some reasons that the state kinda needs to know where you live (at least in Germany) is for a number of reasons:

- so you can vote in local elections and they can send you your ballots

- taxes, as they depend on where you live (some tax rates can differ and more importantly it decides where your taxes go)

- security, so for example when you have an arrest warrant or have committed a crime, etc. the state knows where to send your fines, etc.

- planning of health services or education services requires the state to know where people actually live

[fabian2k]

One advantage of this is e.g. that you do not have to register for elections at all in Germany. You get automatically notified of all elections based on your residence and can vote without further steps.

[ghaff]

Part of it is that there's just more of a tradition of keeping track of people in many places compared to the US. As a visitor staying in a hotel, you're shielded from a lot of it most places because the hotel takes care of it. But I was staying with a friend for a couple weeks recently in a European country, and they had to take my passport down to some office and fill out some paperwork.

[RandomLensman]

Compared to the UK where you need to have some utility bills or bank statements as proof of an address, having an ID card with an address is a lot easier in practice.

But, yes, different societies have different approaches there and they are kind of designed around it.

[mytailorisrich]

> Compared to the UK where you need to have some utility bills or bank statements as proof of an address, having an ID card with an address is a lot easier in practice.

Well, no.

You already have bills in your name, so there is nothing to do.

On the other hand, regarding ID cards (in France): First there is no obligation to keep the address on it up-to-date (so why is there even an address on it?). Second, if you do want the address to be up-to-date then you need to follow the administrative procedure to get a new ID card, which involves providing... a proof of address in the form of an utility bill!

[lukan]

"Why do you need to "register" your address? Why do you need any of this?"

Control.

So the state knows in theory, who is living where.

With the joke being, that those institutions, where that information would actually be useful, don't know anyway. And so you still have to submit your adress everywhere (and then again, and a third time, to be sure).

[lukan]

"you might also need to take care of the TV bill stuff"

You mean what was formerly known as GEZ?

No worries, nowdays that got easier, they just help themself. In my case they just took the money straight from my bank account without consent or asking first, or without me even giving them my current account. (No idea how that was possible, it was the same account as some years ago, but I was living offroad for some time and never gave them permission, but suing them is a fools errand)

[canadiantim]

jeez Wohnungsgeberbestätigung is a mouthful

[FinnKuhn]

considering that an appointment for changing your registered address in Germany can be booked online and than you only have to go in person so they can put the new address on your ID card, show them your "Wohnungsgeberbestätigung" (letter from the landlord that you actually live there when you rent, not needed when you own your house) and sign once that you actually moved there I would say it sounds worse than in Germany.

[ciclotrone]

Having immigrated to both places: yes, much worse.

[duxup]

I hadn't even thought moving would take multiple pieces of paper ...

In the US it's just https://moversguide.usps.com/mgo/disclaimer?referral=UMOVE

And this isn't even "required".

[renegade-otter]

To be fair, the U.S. is very unique in that sense. No other society in the world is this uncommitted to one single place. Moving in the States is like getting lunch. Some extreme rent savers do nothing but move every year.

Even if the move process is frictionless, in most countries, it's just not a thing. You are "tied" to your family house or apartment, passed from generation to generation. Here, real estate is just a commodity.

[duxup]

It's very interesting to me that there's such a formal official residence type system in other countries (not sure what else to call it).

In the US it matters too to some extent, eligibility for elections if you want to hold office, your tax burden for states that tax property and so on. But there's not a super official universal office you need to declare it at with lots of paperwork or validation outside of say the given situation it applies to. If I ran for office I'd provide my address and there you go, no complex validation, or if I wanted to pay lower taxes because it is my primary residence ... I just say that's where I live. Those given processes are left to validate it if they wish.

Bureaucracy is a strange thing. We get comfortable with what we know and we can't think of it any other way and it becomes a bit of a revelation when we realize maybe we don't have to do all that ...

[ghaff]

Basically, in the US, if you have a mailing address that can be where you "live." It may not be able to be a PO Box and, if you're a politician or otherwise high profile, someone may look into it. But if you're an ordinary Joe and you have a trusted relative/friend who will keep an eye out for important mail, that's mostly fine. A state could get cranky if they think you owe them taxes but mostly they'd have no way of knowing. You may need to do the odd thing in person but it's mostly very informal.

[ghaff]

More households in Germany (and I'm sure other places) rent than in the US. Not that I really disagree that the US is a pretty mobile society overall.)

[Gigachad]

It's basically the same in Australia. Super convenient to move around as a renter. Basically just have to update your address with the voting database and your for your drivers license they send you a sticker to put on your license.

I've been moving almost once a year for the last few years just to try out new places and cities.

[ghaff]

You may have some utilities and other things like that. Driver's license/registration if you're moving states. But very little really that you legally need to do.

[Izkata]

Also home insurance or renter's insurance. Legally required in plenty of places.

[ghaff]

Mortgage companies typically require home insurance (and often pay it themselves from an escrow account so they can be sure it's up to date). It would surprise me if renter's insurance was generally required. Even if I have a nominal permanent address, I may not actually have a lease or spend much time there (if any).

The basic point is that most people in the US will want some permanent address where they can get mail etc. and is where they live from the perspective of official government documents. But they may not actually live there (and aren't required to).

[Leherenn]

How does it work with taxation? As far as I know, states and cities have various tax rates, so how do they know who is supposed to tax you?

It's often one of the main reasons why they ask you to register in other countries.

[duxup]

Depending on the tax.

For say sales tax like things if you buy something online the address you ship it to usually determines that. So no effort required there. In person if you're in TX you pay the TX sales tax (if they have one), if you are in NY you pay the NY sales tax.

As far as filing taxes for a year goes (income tax, property tax) you file taxes (or maybe you don't) and there you go. Filling taxes is largely a sort of declaration of what you say you did and owe. It's up to the state or feds to validate if they wish.

[Leherenn]

Thanks. It looks like a trade-off between bureaucracy/monitoring and ease of fraud. I guess that's why the US seems to rely a lot more on property taxes than other countries, harder to evade.

[ghaff]

For the purposes of government ID, you're going to have a principal residence. But, for ordinary people, there's no real guarantee that you actually live there. It could be a friend's house who keeps an eye out for important mail.

[Aachen]

This looks like a snail mail forwarding service? Surely that's not mandatory to move somewhere else? I've never used this in Europe (moved 5 times), just tell the places that need to send me physical mail my new address

[gh02t]

Not mandatory, though it is nice because USPS also notifies the sender of your updated address and then most places automatically update the address so you don't have to. The main work you actually have to do is closing/opening new utility accounts and possibly update your drivers license/vehicle registration.

[duxup]

It's not mandatory as far as ... nobody is going to let you move.

It does mean that you'll get your old mail delivered to your old place forwarded to your new place while the other folks mailing you get their ducks in a row. And honestly I can't think of all the places that might mail me.

[Aachen]

Yeah I thought the topic was things you have to do to move, like registering in the new city and notifying the old country or so

[duxup]

Yeah I agree. But my point being it is a pretty tangential thing and also the first thing you think of in the US. The scale of "have to do" is really low, to the point that you start with something pretty easy and that's largely it as far as "official" moving activity.

[devnullbrain]

You can't use 'just' when the thing you're suggesting is more work.

[Aachen]

But works. The post already doesn't sort a decent percentage of stuff correctly as it is, I'd never trust it to correctly identify which mail needs to go to me when some senders may put the first name, others the last name, others my name, others my partner's name, others including the cat's name as a joke, and others not including a name at all. The sender also needs to send something in the right timespan (before you stop ordering the service) in order to get your new address. This is also assuming nobody in your household shares a first or last name with the new inhabitants

Compared to what seems like a big mess of telling only the post and hoping everyone will get the memo from them, telling the utility, my employer, family, and a few insurances that I moved (updating the info on the self-service site or sending support an email) seems like the better solution to me

[0dayz]

Would you say that this is due to overzealous bureaucracy or does it have a point?

Since I'm not sure how much paper work you can do to confirm thst you are indeed moving away or loving in.

Also wondering if this could be elevated somewhat by having the form be digitalized as it is in certain European countries.

[mariuolo]

I hope it's not everything by hand.