[tdooner]

Here is my favorite ATC mouthful. Flying in the Bay Area is full of these kinds of complicated instructions that will burn anyone unfamiliar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQYZtPhK-mg

The controller expects you to hear, interpret, and read back the following clearance:

> N1234, you're cleared to airport XXX via fly runway heading until past the diamond-shaped waterway. Then turn right heading 120. Keep your turn within 2 miles of the airport. Radar vectors Woodside, then as filed. Maintain VFR conditions at or below 1100 feet until crossing the Oakland 165 radial, then climb and maintain 2100. Expect FL350 five minutes after departure. Departure frequency 135.65. Squawk 1234.

No wonder the pilots messed it up.

[piloto_ciego]

This isn’t that crazy of a clearance - you just have to stop, write it down and take it slow. They’re going to fast.

For weird stuff like this I’d always draw it out.

“Ok runway heading until I pass the diamond shaped waterway, then right turn to heading 120. Keep it tight.

Now thinking about altitude, 1100 or less but VFR until OAK-165R, then 2100, expect 350 in 5.

Finally, 135.65 and 6320.”

Then sit for a second and brief it, it’s not crazy. Those guys are just going to fast and they’re a little behind. But “draw it out” on a piece of paper is such an easy way to to handle these sort of situations.

When stuff like this came up, I did not give a shit about ATC flow control or whatever - if I need 30 seconds of delay to understand the clearance they can wait. Its more important that we get it right than push out 1 extra airplane but do it incorrectly and make a big mess of things.

[bombcar]

Also, most of that should be “expected” even if it is an unfamiliar airport, because you did a flight plan and checked out the airport ahead of time, normal approaches and normal pattern.

All that information is available in the airport sheets.

And yes, you need to be willing to say “repeat”.

[piloto_ciego]

Yup - “all available information” is the requirement. But I’d be lying if I said I never got surprised - like, you look at the departure, you read it and understand it, then ATC gives you some crazy nonsense. Still? I ain’t paying by the word - it needs to be done right, not fast, so you make sure understand exactly or you don’t go.

[YZF]

In my distant past I used to be a military air traffic controller, also certified and managed civilian traffic. This seems crazy to me. In my world you would give pilots the simplest next instruction and ask them to report. Even with the simplest possible instructions, and mostly extremely good/experienced pilots, you have mistakes, can't imagine what something so complicated results in.

EDIT: though I guess this conversation isn't during the actual flight, it's some pre-flight "discussion"/instructions?

EDIT2: or you break it down to chunks, make sure every chunk is understood before you move to the next chunk, is another common technique.

[arinazari]

New youtube rabbit hole unlocked, thanks.