[KingOfCoders]

"All the engineering ethics in the world does nothing against the greed of Boeing's management. "

Sure managers are guilty.

But managers did not write the code. "Engineers" did.

As long as there are engineers writing that code (also see VW and #Dieselgate) there will be managers who do this. Engineers need to take a stand and don't do everything. Like professionals. "He made me do it" is not an excuse for hundreds of dead people.

[roughly]

I generally agree that one has an ethical duty to be accountable for the output of one’s work, but I also worked with a fellow at a previous job who stuck around long after I’d pulled the chute because his daughter had a medical issue and he couldn’t risk losing insurance. It’s not always that cut and dry, and until we’ve got UBI, universal health care, and a reasonable immigration system, the blame is and must remain on the managers first and foremost.

[KingOfCoders]

"UBI, universal health care"

I have UBI.

[roughly]

You have BI. It’s not UBI until the rest of us have it, too.

[knifie_spoonie]

Managers are the ones with the authority to tell engineers what to do. If an engineer refuses, they'll simply be replaced with someone more pliable.

See the Challenger disaster for a high profile example.

[KingOfCoders]

"replaced with someone more pliable."

If I don't rob the bank, someone else will!

Yes, and then the other engineer is responsible for the dead people, not you. But if your job is more important than other peoples lifes, I guess, yes, you do as you have been told.

[knifie_spoonie]

"If I don't rob the bank, someone else will!"

Or maybe we stop people from trying to force others to rob banks. Nip the problem in the bud.

Why do you want to let managers get away with toxic behavior and then blame the subordinates?

[KingOfCoders]

Me: "Sure managers are guilty."

You: "Why do you want to let managers get away with toxic behavior."

[oefnak]

Okay, then that replacement should also refuse or go to jail.

[knifie_spoonie]

Crazy idea, but maybe the manager trying to force engineers to do these things should be held accountable.

[uxp8u61q]

They're just following orders, is that it?

[knifie_spoonie]

Since when did we start apologizing for people in positions of authority forcing others to bad things?

[uxp8u61q]

"Forcing"? Are they holding a gun to the devs' heads and "forcing" them to implement safety circumvention features? I doubt it.

[KingOfCoders]

We Germans know how to do that!

[tremon]

As long as writing code is not an actual engineering profession with the associated authority and liability -- no, you're wrong. The code was not written by (certified) engineers, it was written by programmers. And programmers do not have the authority to refuse their manager's orders.

[snakeyjake]

>And programmers do not have the authority to refuse their manager's orders.

All free people have the authority to refuse their manager's orders.

But people like money.

[reticulan]

They don't like money, they need it to survive (e.g. to not lose employer provided health insurance)