[dashtiarian]

Is speaking to someone formally considered ending up in an inferior position in all cultures?

In Persian if someone expects to be spoken with formally, they have to speak formally themselves. So when you speak formally you're kinda bringing both parties up. You can even flirt by speaking formally.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

In Spanish asymmetric conversations have always been a thing, e.g. student-teacher, patient-doctor or younger-older conversations where the former side uses V and the latter T.

The V is gradually being dropped in Spain and in the last few decades the process seems to have accelerated, though, definitely it seems faster than in French (although I don't know that much about French). I don't think my 4-year-old son will have much use for the V in his life. And like your parent comment, I also think that's probably for the best in our case, although it does sound like it's probably different in Persian.

[rodric]

> The V is gradually being dropped in Spain and in the last few decades the process seems to have accelerated

I own a Spanish textbook printed (in English) in 1958 that says about «usted»: ‘It is the universal respectful address of society, and the only one the foreigner is ever likely to employ or hear addressed to him, unless he marries a native or forms intimate friendships.’ How times have changed!

[freedomben]

This is what I was taught as well when taking Spanish 30 years ago. Fast forward 20 years and me visiting Mexico City for the first time, and I got some really strange looks using usted

[asveikau]

Spanish has lots of funky history in its second person pronouns that vary regionally. After Argentina's recent election I've been consuming lots of content from there, and it sometimes surprises me how frequently they use vos in things that would seem to call for politeness. Vos itself was formal address in Spain in the time of Cervantes IIRC, it is also the origin of vuestro merced (usted)

[chimeracoder]

> After Argentina's recent election I've been consuming lots of content from there, and it sometimes surprises me how frequently they use vos in things that would seem to call for politeness. Vos itself was formal address in Spain in the time of Cervantes IIRC, it is also the origin of vuestro merced (usted)

vos is not really formal in Argentinian Spanish, although it does share an etymologocal root with vuestro merced/Usted.

Argentinian Spanish is itself pretty different from other Latin American dialects, but in general vos is used interchangeably with tú, to the point where the accusative form of "vos" is also te - ie, "Vos te levantás" instead of "tú te levantas" (note the location of the accents in each example).

The connotations of formality (or lack thereof) are subtle and vary much more widely than you might imagine - far more than the comment limit on HN would permit - but by and large it's better to think of vos as the informal pronoun, and the only question is whether it's used alongside tú, in place of it, or in some weird combination that has its own subtle connotations.

[asveikau]

I know this. What I'm saying is I'm surprised at people using vos where usted seems kind of necessary to me. What I also said is that vos was formal 500 years ago, which is an unrelated observation.

[eternauta3k]

Vos is informal, Usted is formal. That's it. We don't use "Tu" AFAIK.

[totallywrong]

And that depends on the country as well. In Colombia usted can be formal or not, as in parents using it with their children, or among friends, where supposedly tú or vos would be more appropriate.

[shaky-carrousel]

I always start formal (except with kids), and if the other part switches to informal, then I switch too.

[calvinmorrison]

Growing up in the south it was all yes sir no sir yes ma'am no ma'am

[devilbunny]

And in many ways still is, especially for kids, but Southern English also has mechanisms for expressing familiarity and respect at the same time - it was in no way unusual for us to call friends' parents by their first name, provided we prefixed it with "Mr/Miss" (always Miss, for some reason, even if an obviously married woman).

[ramses0]

It's considered "polite" to imply that the woman in question is obviously still an unmarried hottie, which is why you always "err on the side of Miss", rather than "mistake on the side of Mrs."

[devilbunny]

In a general sense yes, but when you're talking about your friend's mom...

[yongjik]

In Korean there are four commonly used forms, which map into the combination of (formal vs informal) x (polite vs not-so-polite). (That's a simple picture and the reality is a lot messier... but let's not get into that.)

E.g.,

Formal polite: military, business email, public announcement

Formal non-polite: textbooks, novels

Informal polite: kids' books, between coworkers, between customer and clerk

Informal non-polite: siblings, childhood friends, mom to kids

[BalinKing]

This sounds very similar to my (very amateur) understanding of how Japanese works as well.

[blowski]

How does the “flirting by speaking formally” work? “I say, does Madam visit this establishment frequently”.

[coldtea]

Yes, but imagine it not sounding funny like in the English case, because it's a normal feature of the language/culture...

[blowski]

Is it because of cultural expectations in how men and women should address each other? Does the formal language get used for properly formal situations as well? Is there a whole set of specific terms for this?

Sorry for all the questions. I just found it fascinating.

[coldtea]

Not sure about the specifics for Iran in particular (the grandparent can answer), I've just heard about that from some friends hailing from there.

But I could relate it, as it was a "chic" thing to do in my parts too back in the day (until around the 1970s), for upper class folks (using the polite forms of address, and so on).

A good analogy in English terms might be the flirting with all the speaking formalities in period movies live "Room with a view" or "Pride and Prejudice".

[throwaway2037]

FYI: Large parts of Afghanistan and Tajikistan also speak Persian. I was surprised to learn this recently.

[fsckboy]

fwiw, it's not so much that Persian is spoken in Tajikistan, it's that the Tajiks are a Persian people (as opposed to, in that part of the world, Turkic, Mongolic, or Hindi (Hindi and Urdu are the same languages, and Hindi and Persian are in the same broad language family, Indo-Iranian)

[dashtiarian]

Different cultures. Persian has 1100 years of literature and recent media for this.

On the other hand you can't dirty talk with a straight face in Persian, since nobody has ever heard or read about it, it sounds super funny.

[pbhjpbhj]

I admit I know barely anything about the subject (but I took an interest in Burton as a younger man): is The Perfumed Garden not "dirty", ie erotic literature?

I recall the One-Thousand-and-One Nights being quite bawdy (talking about lusting after well-endowed servants, IIRC); maybe that's not authentic Persian literature though?

Maybe I misunderstood "nobody has ever read or heard about it"?

Can you help me better understand your comment, thanks.

[dashtiarian]

The current 1001 nights is Arabic and the Middle Persian one is lost. Nevertheless, it is a pre-islamic literature. Perfumed Garden is Arabic and has just been recently translated into Persian.

New Persian literature starts around Rudaki (9th century). Since Islam made sex and showing affection taboo, the tiny fraction of explicit erotica are not studied/known by the general public. Because of the taboo, majority of Persians have not ever heard their parents speak affectionately. And when we study affectionate literature in school the teachers tell us it's about the love for God, and the exams will question us about such love.

[pySSK]

It’s a nice gesture kinda like holding the door open for you date.

[globular-toast]

Voulez-vous couchez avec moi ?

[grishka]

In Russian you can sometimes jokingly call someone like a friend or a partner "вы" + their first and middle (father's) name. It makes you sound kinda important.

[rzzzt]

M'lady

[timeagain]

Well inferior might be overly simplistic. In many cultures you use formal speech with strangers as well.

[elboru]

Not in mine. But you surely build a barrier of “respect”, I learned that early in my career. I was too formal and “too respectful”, that built a barrier with many people, a barrier other teammates didn’t have. That barrier can be useful though, but you need to be aware of it.

[andrepd]

The Wikipedia article linked lists several types of T-V distinctions. Some are based on age, others on age difference, social status, and many more subtle factors. They also change very quickly: my parents speak to their parents with V but I do with T.

[abtinf]

Formal Farsi borders on being its own dialect. I grew up only learning informal "street" Farsi, and find formal Farsi to be almost impenetrable (granted I've never tried to learn it).

[api]

That actually sounds really cool.