[lm28469]

> You cannot deviate from the agenda without getting censored.`

The main difference is that the """agenda""" is a well lit 8 lane highway with the occasional crash in Europe and in Russia/China it's a dark twisty path in a very dense forest with wolves at each bends

But yes sure, Europe is literally a dictatorship, and thousands of people are sent to jail for criticising any arbitrary thing

[bondarchuk]

The ease of following censorship has no bearing on whether censorship is authoritatian or not.

[lm28469]

Literally every single country on this planet has censorship one way or the other, some a bit, some a lot, what you're saying is that any censorship = China tier authoritarianism ?

[bondarchuk]

My point is that the important difference, i.e. the difference between autoritarianism and democracy, is how the agenda comes about, not what the agenda is at any specific moment. We would like to bring about a certain agenda through democratic means, and maintain (or change) it through democratic means, and for that it is important that the agenda and those implementing it (i.e. EU politicians in this case) can be criticized limitlessly.

Initially, when censorship is implemented but the agenda is still largely unchanged, it might look like there's not much of a problem since after all the actions actually undertaken by the government are still those that the majority of the population agrees with. But by that point it has already become a little more difficult to peacefully remove people from power, because they now have an extra tool to remain in power, namely censorship.

>what you're saying is that any censorship = China tier authoritarianism ?

I think where you are disagreeing with mustafa_pasi is that you are comparing the end results of authoritarianism after different amounts of time, whereas mustafa_pasi is comparing the methods of governance that lead to and maintain those end results. You are right that the situation on the ground is not as bad in Europe as it is in China or Russia, but (IMHO) mustafa_pasi is right that people who want to limit what can be said are "no better than the Russian and Chinese counterparts" in their disregard for democratic values and methods.

[lm28469]

Where do you draw the line ? It sounds a lot like any kind of law would be censorship following that logic, any law enforcement is a road to authoritarianism if you think no failsafe exists between the two end of the spectrum

Should I be allowed to call for jihad online ? upload execution videos for propaganda ? can I create a blog to discuss ethnic cleansing with my armed nazi militia hometown association ? When does "fighting the agenda" become "being flooded in foreign agendas" ?

[raxxorraxor]

Yes, I want to see you calling for Jihad. The fact that many people actually do call for that was tried be hidden from the public by officials that like to either pronounce or belittle problems in society, the normal political arena. To be able to make a democratic and informed decision, I have to see people doing that to be able to have a perspective on a problem.

There is a political will to deny these facts and you only have to be marginally creative to find the causes yourself. To put trust in the EU here is completely naive.

[Nathanba]

Pretty easy to see how the EU is simply legislating whatever is comfortable for its leaders instead of what is right: https://www.dw.com/en/calling-prophet-muhammad-a-pedophile-d...

[dragonelite]

Exactly what the EU wants you to believe..

[dfgfek]

The fact that things are better in Europe than in Russia or China does not mean that we can't show concern for the changes that are being imposed in Europe.

I don't know why people keep bringing up Russia or China in every one of these conversations. It's nothing but a strawman fallacy.

[ethanbond]

Because GP said this:

> They are no better than the Russian and Chinese counterparts after all

Correct, we should be protective of our freedoms and indeed the EU (IMO) is a bit lacking in its speech protections, but no one except China and Russia are served by this meme that US/EU are just as bad as China and Russia.

[raxxorraxor]

Because without Russia and China to point a finger at, the arguments are just bad.

[Dalewyn]

At least China and Russia are honest about their censorship.