[faeranne]

Two years ago I spend nearly a month hunting for a decent electric vehicle. I had plenty of funds, and could theoretically afford a lower-end tesla. I was, at the time, driving a 2002 Honda Civic Hybrid, because to me, going electric makes sense. I was aware of the range limitations, and even had an agreement with my landlord to get a 220v outlet installed in the garage.

I ultimately abandoned my endeavor because none of the vehicles provided 2 key things older cars continue to provide: Ownership, and Privacy. And key to this is that this isn't just electric cars, it's pretty much all modern cars. My Civic had a replaceable stereo headunit. How many modern cars have the infotainment system so embedded that functions of the cars depend on it? And we know car manufactures take advantage of that. Hell, even judges seem ok with them doing that [1]. Then you have the fact that repairing anything in the car is made not only intentinally obtuse, but illegal is some states. As it stands right now in oklahoma, you can do any work you want on your gas vehicle, but move to electric and you better have a $5,000 yearly certificate to touch that. Simply opening the hood can land you in jail. And we know the car manufacturers can tattle on you [2]. Then there's the fact that these cars are more than capable of moving themselves. And that system is tied to a remote service. Absolutly nothing stops a manufacturer from deciding that your car's "drive train control system" is no longer licensed, and simply shut it down. Permanently. If companies are willing and able to steal your media [3], the next step is easily to just brick your appliances. Hell, microwaves are already doing that [4]. Trains do that if you decide a third party repair station is reasonable [5]. Where does this end?

Point being, till I can truly own my vehicle again, I'm sticking with older cars. I would much rather own an electric vehicle, but so far none of them are even remotely close to being something I can actually own. Price has nothing to do with it. [1] https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2023/11/judge-rules-i... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/apr/07/tesla-int... [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2023/12/02/playstatio... [4] https://hackaday.com/2022/03/18/welcome-to-the-future-where-... [5] https://hackaday.com/2023/12/06/the-deere-disease-spreads-to...

[Kirby64]

This reads paranoid and hyperbolic.

I’m gonna need sources that you actually cannot repair an EV yourself. Parts sourcing may be difficult, and I’m sure there’s some certification you need as a mechanic to work on high voltage systems in some states, but the vast vast majority of work on EVs is boring normal stuff like brakes, fluids, etc. Nobody is getting thrown in jail for opening the hood on their own car, that’s ridiculous.

Also, nobody is bricking anyone’s car. If you’re that paranoid about remote access, it’s possible to just remove the cell access. It’s certainly possible on Tesla’s, it’s even an unlisted option when ordering.

[faeranne]

> This reads paranoid and hyperbolic.

It does read paranoid, because the whole things should be ridiculous in a sane world. That's part of the problem. This shouldn't even be a concern, but it is.

> I'm gonna needs source...

Unfortunately the source is to read through Oklahoma Statute 40-142, since it's a fairly interwoven and long document that establishes what Alternate Fuel Technicians must do to be certified, what vehicles must be serviced by said technicians, and what the consequences are for violating those requirements. Of note, the statute calls out EVs as falling under the statue requirements, and what your allowed to modify is a (short) list of exceptions, rather than a list of restrictions. There's no single line to point to, as is true for a lot of law stuff.

> Also, nobody is bricking anyone's car. If you're that paranoid about remote access, it's possible to just remove the cell access.

First, please read the last 3 references of my previous comment. There is a clear and present pattern of increased removal of access via remote updates. Furthermore, removing that cell access hampers the car significantly, with no allowed alternative. The option is to let them listen, or watch your infotainment system be effectively paralyzed. I would be happy with an option to simply swap out the infotainment with something else, like I did with my 2002 Honda Civic, but it's their system or nothing. Plus, it takes one trip to the repair shop, which must be a first-party repair shop, since no one else is allowed access to the needed codes to reset the computers, for something to be updated without my consent, and a feature (or the whole car) to be bricked "for your safety". It need not even be that involved. Again, the above train example used geo-fencing to decide when to brick the train. no remote connection needed.

This isn't just a matter of can I hobble a car enough to not abuse me. It's about what part of the car do I really own. Am I allowed to modify it? Are enough of the systems cryptographically secured to, in-practice, prevent me from changing something like a break-pad? Will I need to completely replace the engine computer to swap out the music app?

Right now the answer is that the car isn't mine, and I'm not allowed to make changes. Not in practice, and not in principle.

[Kirby64]

My reading of 40-142 seems to me that if you offer for work/work (i.e., payment in exchange for services) then you require this license. Nowhere do I see any restriction on an individual performing their own service. That's distinctly not work. Find me evidence or a news article of someone getting arrested or fined for working on their own EV in OK.

Also, you're citing multiple unrelated things to actual cars here. Sure, I agree, that remote access/updates can be used maliciously. No doubt.

In actual practice though, what car prevents you from changing brake pads yourself? What car has ACTUALLY been 'bricked for your safety' ? This is hysteria not backed by reality. You can do maintenance on your own car, and I don't see that going away any time soon. Sure, some companies (BMW seems to love to do this...) make it extremely hard to pull diagnostic codes, but there is nobody bricking your car for changing out the infotainment system.

[jeffrallen]

EV brakes are extremely complex because they need to feel like hydraulic brakes but be decoupled from the calipers unless the computer can't accomplish what the driver is asking for with regen, and then it must let the physical force of the drivers for continue through to the calipers. They have to fail safe when the computer is crashing and not calculating the motor field winding currents correctly for them to work.

In a Zoe, there is no coolant to change, it's an integrated heat pump system for humans and propulsion system.

There is very little maintenance a home gamer can do on it, alas.

[Kirby64]

EV braking system complexity has nothing to do with EV brake changes. It works exactly the same, you bleed brakes, and there's a brake fluid reservoir somewhere, you have brake pads. Nothing magic. It's all the same stuff.

Coolant... sure there's less coolant, but there still is coolant, it's just usually for cooling the battery and motors and not the engine. Most are lifetime fill, although most gas engines have >100k mile coolant change intervals already.

What maintenance are you suggesting even needs to be done? Tire changes/rotations, cabin air filter changes... there isn't much else you even need to do.