[defrost]

> All the people who were cutting engineered stone with unsafe methods, are now just going to be cutting granite and other natural stone with the same safety practices that led to this being banned.

> I really don't get it.

Before engineered stone took off like crazy people were already cutting natural stone, working as stone masons, working at BGC quarries (stone mining, crushing, grading, delivery).

After engineered stone became fashionable the rates of silicosis in under 35 year old tradespeople spiked in a sharply noticable way.

After the engineered stone ban things will likely return to previous levels of "it happens but it's acceptably rare".

For whatever reason ( . . . insert theory . . . ) engineered stone manufacture and cutting is much much much worse wrt health issues.

For whatever reason your desk bound rational rule of thumb doesn't track against the data.

[ShadowBanThis01]

Not saying those figures aren't valid, but isn't it also possible that the increased affordability of man-made stone meant that these workers were doing more "stone" installations as opposed to tile or other options?

[bsder]

Edit to just link the article rather than my silly speculation about particle sizes and types:

Reference: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/resp.14625

"The qualitative comparison of in vitro responses between the categories of particles we examined revealed some interesting patterns. Firstly, the ES dusts were the most potent stimulus in inducing cytotoxicity and pro-inflammatory responses in epithelial cells while the standard silica sample was particularly toxic to macrophages. All particles (ES, BM,NS and standard silica) showed some potential to promote IL-8 (CXCL8) and TNF-α production in macrophages, as well as IL-1β, with the exception of natural stone. These observations are consistent with our overarching hypothesis that particle characteristics are key drivers of the lung cell response and, therefore, the risk of disease. In more in-depth analyses with a focus on ES dusts, we found that the quartz concentration was significantly associated with the inflammatory response in macrophages. This is an important observation as there has been consistent rhetoric regarding the crystalline silica content of ES being the key driver of the high disease prevalence. 7,39Indeed, crystalline silica has been shown to be related to the dose-dependent macrophage accumulation response,40aggravated inflammatory cell infiltration, thickened alveolar walls and enhanced expression of collagens. 41However, the relationship between quartz and the macrophage inflammatory response was not the sole driver of the cellular responses we observed."

[amluto]

Hmm, this isn’t crazy.

IIRC in the nineties and earlier, porcelain tile countertops were very common. Granite and marble were exotic.

Porcelain is high in silicates, but not so high in silica. Glaze is (I think) amorphous, like glass. And your average tile installer cuts with a wet saw.

Marble is mostly calcium carbonate. Granite contains lots of quartz.

[xupybd]

Engineered stone is easy to cut on site. Real cheap to work with that's why it beat Porcelain.

I don't think Porcelain is as dangerous.

[amluto]

Porcelain is also easy to cut with a tile saw, and tile saws make very little dust. Porcelain tile doesn’t look fun to cut with a dremel or angle grinder.

[lostlogin]

> For whatever reason ( . . . insert theory . . . ) engineered stone manufacture and cutting is much much much worse wrt health issues.

My theory: engineered stone allowed us plebs to get stone benches. Previously we had stainless, Formica and other bench tops that were less toxic to work with.

[yeeeloit]

Exactly, silica is not the problem. Silica is everywhere, we don't wear PPE to drive down a dirt road.

It's the silica plus the adhesive additives combined in your lungs that does the damage.

[cyberax]

> Exactly, silica is not the problem

It is. The air-driven rock drills were called "widowmakers" by miners because of silicosis that quickly reaped its operators.

> Silica is everywhere, we don't wear PPE to drive down a dirt road.

Silica down the road is not in the form of fine dust.

[maakk]

Maybe. Or it's the dose, which sounds quite high when working with engineered stone.

[Reason077]

Or the size of the particles. Cutting engineered stone has been shown to generate large quantities of extremely fine particles (< 1 µm). Cutting natural stone or driving on a dirt road, the typical particle sizes are much larger.

[simondotau]

Why isn’t it being cut wet? Surely if dust is the problem, water is the solution.

[suprjami]

Yes, it is. There's an ABC article about this, they interviewed one particular business owner who has gone to great lengths to get good equipment which cuts engineered stone with wet saws which don't generate dust, and has worked hard to instill a culture of safety with his workers. Nobody working there has silicosis.

As per the rest of the comments here, it just seems that most tradies would rather literally die than implement any reasonable safety precaution.

[pshc]

If done properly, probably.

> In February 2021, a WorkSafe Inspector attended the workplace and observed an employee using a powered abrasive polishing tool to abrasively polish a slab of white coloured stone which was from the brand Stone Ambassador. The tool was being used without the required control measures in place. Instead, the employee was applying water to the stone from a bottle with a small hole in the lid when the tool was in use.

[anon-sre-srm]

It's the bozos working with the stuff without proper PPE.

I watched a grave marker carver absolutely bathing in dust with just a thin bandanna, I was in there for 5 minutes and was left choking in their hazardous work environment.

WitH sufficient PPE and dust control, it's not a problem. This is just barking up the wrong tree because they can't get workers to not be idiots, so they pick a scapegoat to ban at random. It's not fucking asbestos. It's apparent but ineffective motion by expediency.

[vintermann]

> they can't get workers to not be idiots

Is it that or is it that someone doesn't want to pay for those industrial-scale air cleaners?

I got a little interested in particulate air quality during covid so I ran across the entrepreneurs selling them. You can probably make the air in a quarry as clean as in a surgery room, if you're willing to pay.

[isilofi]

There is an easy, cheap and well-tested air cleaner: wet cutting, i.e. cutting under running water. All dust will be bound in the runoff, almost no airborne particles. But it is messy (often not doable indoors, because you splatter everything with rock slurry) and just a little more expensive gear than for dry cutting. So nobody does it...

[prmoustache]

Water is increasingly becoming something we can't waste as easily as before in many parts of the world.

[its-summertime]

I don't think seeing one person do something can really compare to having a dedicated taskforce do 2 years of research into an industry, in terms of understanding risk and what practical options there are to manage said risk.

[dantiberian]

From the report:

> A total of 12 successful prosecutions have been reported since 2021, with many related to the uncontrolled processing (dry cutting) of engineered stone materials

https://www.safeworkaustralia.gov.au/sites/default/files/202...

[mattmaroon]

OK, fair, and tragic, but is the only solution banning it entirely? What about requiring PPE?

There are a whole lot of jobs that are safe when done properly and unsafe, when not done properly. It seems as if they are punishing an entire industry for not knowing what they didn’t know.

[yeeeloit]

Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated.

The PPE available for this sort of work is just not up to the job.

[Reason077]

Making driving 100% safe is nearly impossible, but we drive cars built to good crash standards with seatbelts, ABS, AEB, etc. People still die on the roads, but these safety features reduce risk to an acceptable level. Likewise, using decent PPE won't 100% eliminate risk, but it will greatly improve it. Just because PPE isn't 100% effective doesn't mean you shouldn't use it.

The other kind of obvious solution with engineered stone is to avoid cutting it at the installation site. If it's cut to spec at the factory in a controlled environment (surely not that difficult in this age of CAD design etc), you wouldn't be blasting dust around during installation.

[eru]

You inadvertently make a good point that driving should probably be taxed a lot heavier in most places.

It's reasonably safe for other people in cars, but it's hell for pedestrians, wheel-chair users and cyclists. So much so, that we have re-organised our whole society around avoiding this danger. Eg kids don't play on the streets anymore.

[Reason077]

I agree with this. But perhaps a lot of it is just perception? In my country pedestrian deaths have fallen dramatically since the mid-1980s, by about 80%, despite the size of the vehicle fleet getting much larger. Were there more pedestrian deaths in the 1980s because more kids played on the streets? Or because cars and drivers were less safe and less aware of the risks? It certainly wasn't because there were more cars!

Cars and streets have also been getting safer here: advanced pedestrian and cyclist-aware AEB is already in many cars - and becomes mandatory in all new cars in Europe from July 2024. Streets are getting safer with better designs (more choke points, raised pedestrian crossings, etc), and speed limits being reduced in urban/residential areas.

[eru]

Of course, details depends on the country in question.

I'm mostly worried not so much about the actual number of casualties, but about the avoidance actions people engage in, ie not playing outside.

[xupybd]

Why not use other materials?

Modified acrylic or compact laminate?

That will save lives.

[Reason077]

Although good materials, acrylics and laminates are not quite as durable as engineered stone countertops. They tend to show more wear over time, and are more prone to damage from extreme heat etc. Some may consider the look and feel of stone to be more "premium".

But of course they're cheaper and lighter and probably still cheaper than stone even if you end up replacing them a couple of times over the lifetime of the kitchen...

Polished concrete is another decent alternative to engineered stone, although again perhaps not as durable.

[xupybd]

You can repolish an acrylic top and it looks brand new. Most professionals should only take an hour or two to do it.

[scythe]

Geopolymer to the rescue!

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000888460...

[xxs]

Polishing, sanding concrete will produce tons of tiny dust particles just as cutting the stone.

[cyberax]

> Cutting stone and keeping 100% of it out of your lungs is nearly impossible, especially when you are working in uncontrolled environments like someone's kitchen that is being renovated.

I'm building a house, and I have a stone countertop installed. None of the cutting was done on-site. All the work was done in a specialized workshop.

[mattmaroon]

I believe it’s always done that way in the US when you order granite or other stone countertops. Cutting large heavy slabs on site isn’t efficient.

[amanaplanacanal]

I thought all you had to do was use water with the saw and wear a respirator. Am I misinformed?

[raverbashing]

No, you're not misinformed, but some people will conflate a non-perfect protection with 'protection is useless'

It's just bog standard denialism

[mattmaroon]

I think that’s simply untrue. You’re not cutting the stone in kitchens, it’s cut at the warehouse and transported to the kitchen. In the US we’ve regulated this and while our record isn’t 100% safety due to non-compliance (which is always the case) we’ve got a much lower rate than Australia despite presumably selling a lot more of it.

[DannyBee]

PAPR is fine? and available?

[AdamJacobMuller]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[defrost]

Cute but lacking depth.

If you feel that way, take it up with:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/resp.14625

https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/files/publications/OSHA37...

and the tradies getting physical reactions in their lungs from the dust.