[mupuff1234]

Is it really worth fighting over a piece of land for generations?

It's just dirt, there's nothing special about it. Almost all borders are the results of war and conquest throughout history, it's better to accept that and move on.

[squidbeak]

It's their home and they have nowhere else to go. Wouldn't you want to preserve your community, culture and homeland?

[mupuff1234]

They have a home in Gaza and the west bank - most of Palestinians today have never been inside the 67' borders so how exactly is it their home?

I'm pro a 2 state solution based on the 67' borders, fighting over some "right of return" to a place you've never been for generations just seems like a waste of life.

And if you even take the very long term view, a 2 state solution could eventually lead to open borders, and an implicit "right of return" (after decades of peace and building trust).

[lazyasciiart]

There are millions of people in Africa who have been born and grown up in refugee camps, and you are arguing that they should all simply give up and consider themselves settled there forever because they’ve never been to the places their parents or grandparents fled? For one thing, they might believe that an entire farm would be better to live in than a single flattened apartment?

And then you argue for the ‘67 borders: that’s 50 years ago, what makes those the borders we should roll back to when almost no Palestinians of today were alive before then?

[mupuff1234]

> and you are arguing that they should all simply give up and consider themselves settled there forever

I can't comment on all the situations because I have very little familiarity with refugees in africa, but assuming they don't have a state to return to and they can form a new state where they are? Then yes, 100% yes.

The 67' borders are internationally recognized, so I'm saying accept that and move on.

My grandparents lived in eastern Europe before the Holocaust, I'm not crying to return there because I have a new home.

Throughout history humans have been nomadic and moved from place to place. If you take any person and go up along their ancestry line at some point you'd probably encounter some ancestor that was displaced (by another tribe, nation, lord, just some bastard, etc), and yet we don't dwell on that.

[lazyasciiart]

The ‘67 borders may be internationally recognized but they are not currently in existence, which is why I am confused by your conflating the ideas of just accepting where you are now and returning to the borders that existed 50 years ago.

[mupuff1234]

Accepting where we are now as in accepting the current international borders as more or less the blueprint.

[HDThoreaun]

Well no, the vast majority of palestinians have never lived in Israel, it is not there home.

[abusada]

Sure, move on to where? do what? I'm curious, how much do you know about the situation here?

[mupuff1234]

Stay put. Palestinians should get a state in Gaza and the west bank.

I'd like to think I have a somewhat decent understanding of the situation, but flawed and with its own biases of course.

[xkekjrktllss]

Where do you suggest they go?

[mupuff1234]

Gaza and the west bank, where they currently live.

And israel should remove the settlements of course.

[sam1994]

I don't think you even understand the gravity of the situation.

Not only did Palestinians were forcibly evicted in 1948 (The Nakba), they're being continuously occupied by an apartheid, racist and terrorist regime.

This is not a matter of conquest my friend. Because look. And bear with me. This might be long. But it's worth it. The Muslims conquered the lands of Jerusalem in 638 AD where the first Islamic Caliphate, Umar Ibn Khattab, besieged the city and the Christians surrendered. He took over without bloodshed. When Umar Ibn Khattab asked them, where are the Jews? He was surprised to hear they were all slaughtered or driven away by the Byzantine Christians sometime around 138-150 AD. He said, bring 20 Jewish families and establish them here. No lands were stolen, nothing was taken, no forced conversions were made. Jews Christians and Muslims co-existed. Then the Christian crusaders came in the 11th century and SLAUGHTERED everyone, Muslims AND Jews. Then, Islamic leader Salahuddin came 150-200 years later and liberated Jerusalem. Again, same thing. No lands were taken, no forced conversions. He even spared the Christians who slaughtered everyone 150 years ago. Then the Ottomons came and ruled over from 14 or 15th century and implemented the Millet system where every religious community had their own government. Again, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed. Then it allll went down hill from 1917 onwards. I won't go into details but it lead to the Nakba in 1948, where British soldiers were commanded to evict Palestinians. 750K Palestinians displaced. Tens of thousands were killed. Women were raped (watch Tarantulla, watch the Jewish soliders ADMIT TO THIS). So mate, there's a massive difference. It's not just a piece of land. It's generations upon generations of families. And their homes being stolen. They're being KICKED off their lands. Generations where they've experienced so many atrocities. Atrocities that are being committed still to this day.

And if you want to understand even an ounce of the terrorism that Israeli soldiers commit against Palestinians in occupied territory, what better way than to listen straight from the mouths of ex-IDF soldiers? Well, good news for you, ex-IDF soliders in early 2000 created an org called "Breaking the silence". Look it up. THere you'll find over 300 video confessions + 200 text confessions of IDF confessing to acts of terrorism. Examples include occupying a home just to watch the World Cup, or to sleep in it while ALL the family sits in one room. Using children as human shields to do their search operations. They literally coined the term "neighborhood procedure" where they use Palestinians to knock on suspected "terrorists" homes to scout them out (Such cowards). You'll come across videos of soldiers confessing to killing an innocent man on the rooftop bc he looked at them weird. Or killing a child 40 min after he threw a molotov. I mean the list goes on and on. All that I described are from the video confessions. No propaganda. No BS. All straight from ex-IDF soldiers. Watch the videos on "Breaking the silence" and then come tell me if they can just "accept and move on". So it's not just about land my friend. It's about occupation, oppression, etc.

[mupuff1234]

1948 was a result of a war that Arab nations started so not quite one sided as you portray.

Did Israel commit some crimes during 1948? Sure, but it's kinda silly to expect Israel to not use a war that was forced upon them to better their situation, especially when when the Arab nations tried to wipe out Israel.

You can't start a war to wipe someone out, lose that war and later call foul play on such a response.

And again, I think Israel should stop the occupation in the west bank, which is what "breaking the silence" is all about, I'm not trying to protect israel's actions.

And if it's not about land and all about peace and prosperity, what's the issue with a two state solution?

And why didn't you go all the way back to the kingdom of judea in your history lesson?

[sam1994]

I specifically said it's not ONLY about land...

Well, there have been many proposals for a 2-state solution but at many times, both sides have jeopardized and rejected offers.

Better their situation? Really? At the expense of displacing almost a million people? Come on man, are you hearing yourself? Not only have they displaced them, they've killed tens of thousands of them. On top of that, they've been taking more and more land as the decades have gone by. Not to mention the acts of terrorism they've inflicted on Palestinians in occupied territory.

1948 was a result of a war that Arab nations started? Can you elaborate on that? Why did they start it? Please elucidate me.

[mupuff1234]

> Come on man, are you hearing yourself

Yes I am. Do you think international borders around the world have been the same since the beginning of time? All nations have done the same and have shaped their own border through wars, in this case the war was a defensive one which makes it one of the more righteous ones.

Do you dispute the right to exist of the US or Australia? Why not? If anything jews are actually indigenous to the land.

Are you aware that not all of those 700k were displaced by israel? A large percentage of them fled on their own, and some also listened to the advice from arab nations and left their homes.

> 1948 was a result of a war that Arab nations started? Can you elaborate on that? Why did they start it? Please elucidate me.

Are you claiming that they didn't start it?

[sam1994]

Hahahaha Jews are indigenous to the land? Really? Dude, I don't think you even know what you're talking about.

Do you know who Abraham is? Yeah. It all starts from him. Earliest historical records show, he was born in present day Iraq. And he emigrated to the land of Canaan. According to both historical records AND the Old testament. It literally says in the Old Testament that the Caananites were in the land where Abraham traveled to and also says God will promise the land to the children of Isaac and Jacob (who was later renamed Israel). T

So what I've told you alone tells you that Jews were NOT indigenous to present day Israel. It was the Caananites man. Like bro. You saying that alone discredits anything you know so far because you're quite literally just parroting sh*t you hear without doing any research. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Seriously. Open a book. And read. Do more research.

[mupuff1234]

Lol, you do realize that Palestinians also migrated to that area, no one magically appeared there - humanity didn't start there.

And btw https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11543891 - Jews are not any less indigenous than Palestinians.

Palestinians as a people and identity only started to exist in the 1900s - please learn your history, these are basic facts.

[sam1994]

Dude, you're making straw-man arguments. You're saying "All nations have done the same and have shaped their own border through wars".

Like that makes it okay? And man, you don't even realize that you don't know what you're talking about. You keep making orthogonal points. Here's what I'm saying, land keeps getting taken. By Israelis. That's an international crime. Quite literally. The UN was established at the time. And guess what. The Israelis were promised a certain percentage of Palestinian land by the British, but they took more. And kept taking more and more with illegal settlements man. Even to this day man. They've kicked Palestinians off in 1948 and they continue to do that. That's what you don't understand and you keep glossing over it as if it's been done. It's happening NOW man.

A large percentage of them fled on their own? I don't know how true that is but that's effectively the same thing as being driven away. What compelled them to do that? You do realize tens of thousands were killed too right...? Like dude, I don't think you even hear yourself. Why wouldn't they leave on their own if they were being killed? And chased away? The British soldiers physically evicted Palestinians. Don't you know that? Why did they also leave on their own? Like don't you think about these things? You can ask the same questions to Jews when Muslims ruled over them. The Jews didn't leave when Muslims ruled over them. So why didn't the Jews leave when Muslims took over Spain? Hmm? Why didn't the Jews leave when Islamic ruler, Salahuddin conquered Jerusalem back in the 13th century? Why did they come back? Why did Umar Ibn Khattab, the first Caliphate of Islam, establish 20 Jewish families in Jerusalem when he conquered Jerusalem and found out the Jews were driven and slaughtered by the Christian? You see where I'm getting at? When Muslims ruled, Jews were protected. They weren't displaced. They kept their own lands. No displacement. And then the colonial British came and **ed everything up. Thanks Britain. Thanks a lot.

[mupuff1234]

Israel expanded in 1948 after a defensive war, which makes the conquest legal (same as 1967)

I agree about the west bank, I think Israel should remove the settlements.

I don't see what Muslim history in the are has to do with anything. Jews are indigenous to the area, border fights exist, and the current situation exist. Israel was founded and expanded after a few successful defensive wars - you just need to accept that as a fact.

Now we can be pragmatic and try a two state solution or we can continue arguing about history.

Palestinians can fight for what they view as justice for generations and get nowhere except more suffering, or they can decide that the west bank and Gaza are enough. It's their call. I know what I would decide

[Aerbil313]

Great writing. People seem to forget history, which they were probably never taught.