[kamaal]

Your parent comment argument is a flawed argument, of course.

By definition everything that ever happens, happens from cause-effect conditions. So if you end up winning, everything that happened that led to it, in some way is responsible. But that's splitting hairs.

I have seen these situations even in other relationships. There are these cousins, or uncles who would have dropped you to an interview, or lent you some money to get there. You work hard and are fairly successful a few years later. Now they think they are responsible for the whole thing, and you owe a great deal of things to them.

If you are not relatively old(and 30s goes as young as adults can), you should be responsible for yourself, your finances and your decisions. Pension guarantees, and handing over whole life's work and savings because they other person wanted out feels not only excessive, but also devoid of any logical sense.

[corethree]

Exactly. Especially in modern times. Women have equal rights now... which is hugely deserved.... but they don't have equal responsibility? That later part no longer makes sense.

[steve_adams_86]

I’d argue that equal rights aren’t yet global nor fully manifested even in places where they’re intended.

Look at studies around division of labour within North American homes and it appears women are still tending to take on most homemaking responsibilities. There are interesting psychological and potentially biological factors involved.

One take on this is that women do a lot of “hidden” labour. What men do is often very obvious and readily apparent. Women take on tasks more related to planning, preparing, organizing, or otherwise using mental energy and time to improve quality of life for their families. For the family it just seems like things are normal; it isn’t evident that a person went out of their way to ensure things went better. This work is actually quite demanding and often invisible and unappreciated. It can often lead to reduced time for self care, sleep, eating, etc.

[corethree]

Women aren't obligated to do the work you describe. They often do but they don't need to do it.

The man needs to fill his gender role fully by raw obligation. It is not a choice. It's a biological requirement expressed by women in mating preferences. It's a strong preference and pretty much Universal behavior among women.

Men impose no such requirement on women. So what you will see is that whether women do what you say or not varies widely. I lived in a family where my mother didn't plan anything and she wasn't diligent about making sure everything was smooth. She was chill about everything. Didn't mean our family was dysfunctional. That's just her, and she could be this way because my dad didn't care. But if my dad wanted to become a house husband? The marriage is over if that choice is ever made.

Either way. The split should be made by proof of work. Not hypothetical anecdotes from either of us. Historical Income is the only raw evidence of it.

And I'd go further to say. If a woman doesn't demand equal responsibility then she doesn't deserve equal rights. That goes for men too. Unfortunately male dating preferences are rather lax, but that's another story about another problem.

[steve_adams_86]

I agree, to a point. Everything should certainly be a case-by-case basis.

We’re also in complicated times because social norms aren’t as dependable as they were, once. Family structures are changing. Roles are changing for many people. My kids experience around the home is already far different from mine, and I believe it’s the case for most of their friends as well. Family structure in 20 years could be significantly different from what it was 20 years ago. The need to evaluate case-by-case will probably only increase.

Your point about equal responsibility and equal rights is a good one. I suppose my position is that a lot of hidden labour can be responsibility, and it can often be important and overlooked. Yet, it’s not as though men never share in this, or that being a primary provider doesn’t come with its own hidden labours. For example, the insane amount of learning required to stay competitive and relevant in my role - we’d very likely have a smaller income if I didn’t fit this in and move my career forward. It’s all very complicated, nuanced stuff.

At the end of the day though, I agree. If someone isn’t actively pursuing equal responsibility for themselves and their partner, they’re likely not equally entitled.