[abrugsch]

And how many are working combined with how many have a sufficient connection to the grid to power all the chargers in the local cluster if all are being used at once (for reference see the hassle a recent pair of youtubers went through when doing a ICE vs EV "race" from John-o-Groats to Land's end[0][1].

Spoiler alert, most chargers were broken or had queues to use (so an hour to wait even before you got your '20 mins') or were gimped into low power delivery because all of the points were in use and the connection to the grid was only enough to serve one car at full power.

I'm not saying this all charging stations all over the country, all times of the year (this was on a weekend of a half term holiday) but even as a snapshot of where the UK is in getting the infrastructure up to speed, we are a long way behind the demand curve, and that's before you take into account all the people who haven't bought into EV's yet because of their reliance on public charging infrastructure (due to not living in a house with a driveway etc) which has been shown now to actually cost more per mile than an efficient ICE car in Diesel/Petrol when using public charging networks.

(In the video referenced above, Lee had to resort to using more expensive charging locations (due to unavailability of the planned ones for reasons listed above) and the final charging bill for the distance of the journey was nearly £260. The ICE (diesel) was £122[2] The usual cry against the public charging situation is "should have bought a tesla" and "Home charging balances that out"

1. We don't have a monoculture of cars, not everyone wants or even LIKES Teslas 2. Home charging is fine if you happen to live in a house where that's viable, which is AFAIK less than 50% of householdes in the UK. 3. The home charging cost is typically (dependent on the tariff deal you have) anywhere from 8p to 30p per KWh. range varies on model, but the best EV's have an upper end in ideal conditions of around 4 miles/KWh so between 2-7.5p per mile in the Lands end run video, Geoff got around 13p per mile (mainly not using motorway filling stations so avoiding excessive costs.) Since an EV is still a premium/luxury/early adopter product, the cost premium is usually at least £10000 more than an equivalent ICE car. In order to recoup the cost premium you need to do 90000 and 150000 miles before it earns it's difference back. For most cars (in the UK due to attrition from road conditions or other drivers inability to not write your car off) that's in excess of the operational life of the car (that being said both the cars in my household are north of those numbers, but they are definitely in a minority) let alone that fact that people now are all too keen to keep a car that long. The numbers made sense a few years ago but until the prices start getting more realistic for ordinary people it's a gamble (Oh and now EVs are more expensive to insure too, further offsetting any running cost advantage)

Right now the only argument (for me at least - and I do have a driveway) for an EV is the environmental one but the production of them is far from perfect too (but it's still early days so who knows) There are much bigger wins to be had in industry and travel than getting me into an EV (like improving public transport to the point that it actually becomes more viable for starters)this all sounds like I'm anti EV and anti public transport, but I actually WANT to like them both (I never needed a car when I lived in Hamburg with an excellent interconnected public transport system)

[FirmwareBurner]

>Spoiler alert, most chargers were broken or had queues to use

Right. At peak season(summer and winter holidays around Christmas and NYE) even gas stations have long ques for gasoline along the popular European highway routes like Austria, Italy, Croatia, etc. meaning a fill up can take 20+ minutes sometimes.

I can't imagine what it would be with EV charging spots at those times. You're out of juice, looking for a 30 minute quick charge and there's others already waiting in line for their 30 minute quick charge. You might as well spend the night there because you're getting home today.

Range anxiety and the lack of abundant charging infra is still a huge issue for most families when they choose not to go EV yet for their single do-it-all car. It seems to work for Nordics and Benelux countries that have high incomes and invested heavily in infrastructure, but most of the EU is still far behind.

[audunw]

> I can't imagine what it would be with EV charging spots at those times.

There will be a transition period when infrastructure is constrained. That’s true.

But in the long term I think this will be less of an issue than you’d think. Many people can charge at home and at their destination so that’ll reduce the number of people that need to charge along the way. EV batteries are getting bigger and cheaper, and can charge faster.

After we bought a new EV I practically don’t use fast charging anymore, even on our longer trips. If I do, I might just need a 10min top-up to get to our destination. Our old EV that was highly dependent on fast charging is now just used for local trips, so the new EV has reduced the impact on fast chargers.

Since fast chargers are easier to build than gas stations, and better at attracting customers (these days it’s customers with spending power I might add), there’s fast chargers in many more different kinds of locations than gas stations. Like, all the roadside McDonalds here in Norway have fast chargers now.

Some times we’ve also driven to a parking garage with a whole bucketload of slow/AC chargers where we’ve had an hour break, go to a cafe, do some shopping, etc. You can get a decent top-off in that time with a 22kW charger.

There’s just so many more ways of doing charging with EVs.

This is almost a solved problem in Norway already. Some cities are hitting 30-50% EVs on the road. Yes, Norway is wealthy(-ish), but when Norway did much of its roll-out, EVs were worse and more expensive, the fast chargers were worse and more expensive. There was a lot of learning to do that others can now just copy.

[thebruce87m]

You forgot your links, but your EV vs ICE video was Geoff Buys Cars, who is very anti-EV. He specifically architects these videos to make EVs fail for clicks. That’s when he’s not doing his chemtrail videos…

A big part of his recent videos was how bad the depreciation was on a Porsche EV, and from what I can tell it was just normal new car depreciation and he was comparing it to a second hand diesel.

Here is another one done with similar issues of cars sharing chargers but much more straightforward and done in good time: https://youtu.be/bM5hYkEXOVM?si=H-IBzMdeSNhVmwkL

The usual cries are mostly right. Home charging for me is 3p/mile. Tesla have done the right thing where the car know the charger locations and calculates charge times and places. This should be standard in all EVs but isn’t, so you need ABRP to plan it. Not sure if the EV guy did that in the video since I refuse to give that guy clicks.

But this isn’t a representative journey really for most people.

The insurance thing seems to also have been clickbait, since I ran my details straight after seeing the headlines and was able to find insurance no problem. Insurance for non EVs seems to be up too.

[abrugsch]

>You forgot your links, but your EV vs ICE video was Geoff Buys Cars, who is very anti-EV

Oops yes I did. Had them all lined up then forgot the C/P them when I got a call. Yes, He is Anti-EV (or more specifically anti-"modern vehicle" - where cars are treated like information gathering devices that also happen to let you go from A to B) but that's just a requirement for having a more balanced presentation of things. There ARE downsides to EV ownership (currently) that need to be fixed before they can be mainstream, but if you only watch the fully charged show, then everything is roses. Sure Geoff leans heavily into conspiracy theories which hurts his credibility but the result of the 'race' was pretty crystal clear - The public EV infrastructure away from Tesla superchargers is not fit for purpose (right now) or even as cheap as running an ICE car

>He specifically architects these videos to make EVs fail for clicks

Of course he does. That's the Youtube game now. But Lee was a 100% EVangelist on his channel prior to the 'race'. Are you saying Lee engineered the fail too? his Pro-EV channel now seems to have significantly reversed course in that regard.

>Here is another one done with similar issues of cars sharing chargers

Cool. But Tesla is the outlier. We can't just handwave the infrastructure problems away by saying "shoulda bought a Tesla". That's not a long term solution. Cars are often more emotional than that. People buy what they like, and if we all liked the same thing the world would be a boring place.

>The usual cries are mostly right.

They may be right but the solutions they propose aren't viable for all people. We are talking about a technology shift that has to be applicable to ALL people (eventually). As I said in my post, Not everyone wants or even likes a Tesla. I personally will never have one, for a multitude of reasons, including that I just don't like (most of) them. And I'm not the only one.

Home charging might be 3p/mile but generally only available to people with a driveway. That's probably less than 50% of households in the UK. There's a significant amount of terrace housing which if you're lucky you might have street parking in front of. So in that situation the only option is to wait for your local council to put charging options on your street furniture (given many councils are actually facing bankruptcy right now, I imagine it's not a priority right now) And that's even before we get onto mutli occupancy housing and blocks of flats.

I'm not saying this all isn't insurmountable but the speed it needs to happen isn't anywhere near the speed it's actually happening (I'm only seeing small scale trials for street charging appearing in my news feed but no great push from government to make it happen more widespread)

> But this isn’t a representative journey really for most people.

No, but when you might be a family with just one car, that has to do everything, sometimes you have to do long journeys up the country. They may even be somewhat unplanned ("Hey, your elderly father has taken a sudden turn, is in the hospital and may not make it through the night." while he's in Yorkshire and you're in Cornwall. Not Land's End to John o'Groats but still a significant journey that would cause problems for a lot of EV's)

The point is these problems exist. Similar problems exist for ICE cars but they have been mitigated down to minimal thanks to the maturity of the infrastructure. The EV infrastructure is still in it's infancy yet the EV ownership is in its adolescence. The infrastructure HAS to catch up, without the answer being "buy a Tesla"

>The insurance thing seems to also have been clickbait

Anecdata but I had a look on autotrader and a second hand Leaf is 10 insurance groups higher than a comparable second hand civic. Only one data point, I know, and isn't an actual quote but is a snapshot of similar things I've seen over the course of my recent research.

BTW I said before, I'm Anti EV but that was a typo I meant NOT anti EV and public transport. In fact I think an EV would suit my family extremely well. We have off street parking, our trips are > 99% local, my commute is only 10 miles and most of our typical driving is contained within a 30 mile radius of the house.

We do have regular planned trips to parental homes which are >200 miles away but happen infrequently enough to be workaround-able. The only reason we haven't is the cost - the purchase price isn't compatible with our finances right now (and some minor concerns with the battery chemistry stability...) and the cost saving numbers don't stack up.