[yafbum]

The premise of founding OpenAI as a nonprofit with "nobler" goals than making money was that it would be a strong magnet to the right talent. Going to work for Microsoft (or any other tech company for that matter), from that point of view, is like crossing over to the dark side of the force. It will be interesting to see how many of OpenAI's employees were there because of its nonprofit status, and how many were there in spite of it.

[melvinmelih]

I suspect very little people joined OpenAI for their noble non-profit mission after they introduced their for-profit subsidiary. OpenAI compensation was and still is top notch. Compare it to Signal, which is a true non-profit (and salaries are a lot lower).

[yafbum]

Nonprofit status relates to the absence of investor payouts, and doesn't fundamentally have much to do with pay levels. Some employees can be on occasion willing to accept lower pay when the motives are altruistic, but most employees at nonprofits are paid (have to be paid) market rate.

[JumpinJack_Cash]

> > Nonprofit status relates to the absence of investor payouts

The people at the helm of the first organization which cracks AI won't have any need for money

[rvba]

Im trying to find some of those rich people who dont need money/bitcoin - so they can send me some!

[JumpinJack_Cash]

They can leverage AI to get power, they can leverage AI to build the best hedge funds, the possibilities are endless.

[benj111]

And what have we got other than hft from all the billions poured in so far?

Further, I suspect any ai capable of outperforming the market would be too rational, to the point that you wouldn't be able to market it.

If the ai decided that bitcoin wasn't the future, and in 20 years time was proved right, how many people would have maintained that patience?

[niceice]

Signal employees make $400k to $600k a year. How much is OpenAI paying?

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/824...

[justin66]

Interesting, but deceptive. Those are, as noted, "Key Employees and Officers." I just assume most employees with the title "Software Developer" aren't making over five times what Moxie is making.

[mv4]

Nov 13 article: "OpenAI recruiters are trying to lure Google AI employees with $10 million pay packets"

https://www.businessinsider.com/openai-recruiters-luring-goo...

also, this shows $900k+ for L5 w/ 3-4 yoe: https://www.levels.fyi/companies/openai/salaries/software-en...

[ryandrake]

Your number seems to be coming from a very small sample size (single digit N?), and GP's link is only about "key" employees like CxOs, VPs and top-ranking engineers.

I wonder what a median rank-and-file employee at these companies make.

[mv4]

I see your point. The fact that the small sample is for 3-4 YOE 'only', may indicate they do pay very well.

Prior discussion of median TC at OpenAI: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36460082

[boppo1]

What are the credentials for the entry-level paths to positions? A phd?

[mv4]

... looks like this has been the case for a while (since inception)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/19/technology/artificial-int...

[rsanek]

Looks like double to triple of what the same level at MSFT fetches https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Microsoft,OpenAI&track=Softw...

[dboreham]

Few

[kolinko]

700 out of 770 employees already signed an open letter saying they will consider changing jobs.

[shmatt]

Remember all those Apple and Amazon employees who signed a letter that they're not going back to the office? Last I heard Apple was at 100% compliance

Make no mistake, if Microsoft is matching $10M PPU's with $10M Microsoft RSUs vesting over 4 years, every single employee will join. But I kind of doubt that this is their plan

[ForkMeOnTinder]

> Last I heard Apple was at 100% compliance

That doesn't tell you whether it was the numerator or the denominator that changed.

[ryandrake]

It's at least the denominator and likely both. I personally know a non-zero number of people formerly there who found a different job or retired when Apple insisted on everyone returning to the office.

[rsanek]

> Last I heard Apple was at 100% compliance

Do you have a source for this? At other tech companies I'm aware of, the numbers are still much lower than 100%, even after threats of performance impact.

[KerrAvon]

There was no significant uptake on any letter at Apple.

One reason is that retaliation is very possible. The opacity of the executive team was not a feature of Steve Jobs’s Apple, but the Time Cook-era opaqueness combines poorly withthe silo’d, top down nature of Apple’s management which _was_ inherited from Steve Jobs.

The opaqueness, I think, is a result of Tim Cook integrating the retail and corporate sides of the company; retail salespeople are treated better, but software engineers are treated a little more like retail salespeople.

Since the pandemic, Apple execs have seemed to be isolated in a bubble and are not listening to the rank and file anymore. The people they do listen to seem to be out of touch.

[GreedClarifies]

That kind of compensation skew will case ripples in the company. It's possible that OpenAI is worth it, but it is a big gamble by Microsoft.

I think that is approximately L70 comp.

[FireBeyond]

Oh yes, it's going to create waves. People who've had compensation stagnation at Microsoft, reduced bonuses, "belt tightening" now see that "well, we're willing to throw stupid amounts of money at those people over there, just not you".

[kridsdale3]

That's capitalism WAI.

People in stagnant careers signal to their employers that they don't need to do anything at all to retain them.

People at a hot startup have all the options in the world.

Compensation isn't about what's fair at all. It's supply and demand.

You want to make more money? Make yourself in shorter supply and generate more demand for your service.

[znpy]

Isn't it like that at any company?

[yafbum]

Yeah but in these kinds of big companies there are supposedly compensation "bands" by technical level. When salaries within each band are very different, it can be an impediment to talent mobility within the company.

[rco8786]

> Last I heard Apple was at 100% compliance

Bit of a flaw in your logic there ;-)

[rco8786]

The CTO of Microsoft tweeted this morning that they would hire any OpenAI employees who wanted to join MS with commensurate pay. For whatever that’s worth.

[creativenolo]

Do you have a link ;-)

[rco8786]

https://twitter.com/kevin_scott/status/1726971608706031670

[creativenolo]

Déjà vu

[rednerrus]

Are those PPUs really worth anything?

[squigz]

As others have pointed out, it's easier to sign a letter than actually go through with it. Besides that, wasn't there some employees who said something similar on Friday when this happened?

[jacquesm]

This is simply a matter of momentum. If enough of the signatories follow through more will cross the bridge until there are too few people left to keep it going and then there will be an avalanche. It all depends on the size of the initial wave and the kind of follow on. If that stops at 200 people leaving it will probably stay like that, if that number is 300 or even 400 out of the 700 then OpenAI will be dead because the remainder will move as well.

[yumraj]

I think peer pressure also plays a part. You want to be part of the majority in case things change, Sam comes back etc.

Actually going is a whole different thing. Why not go to Google or FB or Anthropic if you’re quitting anyway, and they can match the offer.

[justrealist]

I don't doubt that a lot will, but it's also easy to sign a letter.

[perihelions]

[unpopular comment removed]

[corobo]

At the point where the majority of employees have signed it I imagine it's much easier. Might even get a bit weird if you're one of a few holdouts

e: for what it's worth I thought it was a reasonable discussion point, not sure why you got downvoted on that one :(

[perihelions]

It was a risky gambit for the first half of the signers. Was it not?

[macksd]

I have no idea what the process was for gathering the signatures, but one way to solve this problem is a mutual confidentiality pact that goes away with enough momentum. Ask people if they're willing to sign, but if you can't get 50% of the people to sign the document and all the signatures go away.

Similar things are done when doing anonymous 360 surveys in the workplace. If not enough people in a certain pool respond, the feedback doesn't get shared.

[corobo]

Oh aye for sure - All unions are risky to start with, that's why you gotta keep them quiet until you have overwhelming support

[mepiethree]

Is it really burning a bridge though if >90% of your coworkers (and even bosses) agree?

[fbdab103]

Lot harder for the first N employees at the front of the line.

[sarchertech]

Unless they promised to withhold the letter until 50% signed.

Also I have enough savings and my skills are in demand enough that I wouldn’t consider signing such a letter much of a risk. The researchers at openAI are likely a good deal more in demand than I am.

[saagarjha]

Was your comment unpopular, or wrong?

[phreeza]

How reliable is this information, could it be a deliberate rumor spread by interested parties?

[crdrost]

I agree that it is surprising that the first big whiff of collective bargaining that we see in Big Tech is “let’s save this asshole CEO (who would probably try to bust any formal unionization),”[1] rather than trying to safeguard the workers in the industry as a whole. But I just attribute that to Silicon Valley being this weird hero-worship-libertarian-fantasy cosplay rather than outright conspiracy.

[1] Just to clarify, I don't know Sam and I am taking the usual labor viewpoint that most CEOs, in order to become CEOs, had to be a certain sort of asshole who would be likely to do other such asshole things. There are some indications that this sort of assholery is what he was fired for but it's kinda hard to read between the lines here.

[malcolmgreaves]

Everything about this post is spot-on. The CEO got ousted because he lied to the board and went against the company's mission to make safe AGI. He tried to milk OpenAI for money and personal gain, and the board actually did something to stop it.

The downvotes here are pretty irrational. But that's the defining feature of class warfare: we're all closer to homelessness than a billion dollars, but we've been conditioned to believe the opposite.

[JackFr]

> they will consider changing jobs.

Hmmmm. The stiff resolve of a spaghetti noodle. I "consider" changing jobs literally every single day.

[yafbum]

They didn't say they were going to Microsoft, as far as I can tell. I presume many can get golden offers anywhere including academia and other institutions with stronger nonprofit governance track record.

[mv4]

Literally says "join the newly announced Microsoft subsidiary"

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/11/20/technology/le...

[fyokdrigd]

what this have to do with their willingness to join Microsoft?!?

this only signals desire to leave openai. nothing else.

[mr_mitm]

This is a direct quote from the letter:

>We , the undersigned, may choose to resign from OpenAI and join the newly announced Microsoft subsidiary run by Sam Altman and Greg Brockman Microsoft has assured us that there are positions for all OpenAl employees at this new subsidiary should we choose to join.

It does suggest more than their willingness to leave.

[fyokdrigd]

thanks. couldn't have guessed that from the comment alone. not like I'm following this fabricated soap opera very close

[DeIlliad]

Very few people in tech are in it for noble reasons. Although, a nice pair of golden handcuffs can let you delude yourself into thinking what you are doing is noble. I can't imagine people working on shadow profiles at Facebook think what they are doing is noble.

[baq]

Exactly this.

When challenged, they say ‘someone else would’ve done it anyway, so it might as well be me’. Which isn’t incorrect I think.

[m3kw9]

You join OpenAI because if there is an open spot you’d take it. Plus it’s a famous company doing cutting edge AI, sure you can read the statement, but everyone wants to eat and get a better resume. It’s a bonus thing to feel.

In summary, nobody gaf

[rco8786]

I would wager a very small % of them care about the legal structure of the business and just wanted to build really cool stuff with Sam.

[DonHopkins]

If they were in it for purely noble reasons, they would have already left when it became NotOpenAI.

[mtrovo]

When you're total compensation depends on the for profit part does it really matter?

People talk about the coherence of 700 people signing an open letter as being goal aligned, but I see it more like mortgage payment aligned.

[cyanydeez]

it didn't preclude a now common cult of personality problem.

[jansan]

When reading the title I was instantly reminded of "Come to the dark side, we have cookies!"

[peterbell_nyc]

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/voik6qeguhwaa0hx4zmxm/come-to...