[dereg]

You're wrong. You're oversimplifying stock valuation to a hazard. You cannot use the dividend discount model to value stocks that pay no dividends. This is a fact. Furthermore, a dividend is not the only source of return from a stock, there's also capital appreciation. A stock appreciates for various reasons including investor sentiment and share repurchases (another way for a company to distribute profits). Also, you don't necessarily receive a voting right for a common share.

Like you said, valuation is a super complicated subject so don't mislead others with an incorrect simplification of it.

[prodigal_erik]

Of course you can, you just may not enjoy the answer. Without dividends, there's no actual mechanism for corporate success to benefit shareholders, there's only how "investors" assume each other will probably react to the news. Even share buybacks are priced through this hall of mirrors. A rational valuation is not an attempt to predict where the speculators' random walk will be at some point (there's every sign that can't be done) but the amount you can pay in confidence of ending up with a profit regardless of all that, based solely on how the company plans to reward buy-and-hold investors. These days the answer is often "only speculators think these shares should have any value", and Mark Cuban astutely likened those stocks to baseball cards.

[dereg]

Market expectations do price shares. These expectations can be assumptions about growth, dividend payouts, and such. You're claiming that there is no random walk component, which there clearly is. There is no such thing as paying an amount "in confidence of ending up with a profit" in the world of equities investment — that's an absurd statement and not a means for rational valuation. You can mitigate your portfolio risk but you will never eliminate systematic risk.

[sopooneo]

But why would capital appreciation matter if the stock holder never gets to take that capitol? Aside from voting rights, if you assume a stock will never pay dividends, I don't understand how it would have any value at all.

[dereg]

That's a really good question. First, to clarify, capital appreciation refers to the increase of the price of a stock. Investors buy stocks for a different reasons. The primary reason is to receive a return on that investment. Return is an all-encompassing word. Investors earn a return if the stock price goes up or if the company pays dividends.

There are many companies that don't distribute dividends, either because (1) they may be in poor financial health or because (2) they prefer to reinvest that money in assets that will help generate more return. Even without the dividends, people do buy these companies. In the second case, a company's earnings are expected to rapidly increase, thereby generating more value and lifting the price of the stock. (These are called growth stocks.)

Analysts have developed a gazillion ways to determine a stock's value and potential return. Like many other things, the value of stock is in the eye of the beholder. You could be willing to purchase a share of Google for $2, while I may only be willing to spend $1 for a share. A market for Google develops when millions of people apply their own valuations of Google into buying and selling that stock. It's the market mechanism gives the a stock value (price).

It's likely that this answer won't satisfy you, because I'm essentially telling you that a market capitalization is in the eye of the beholder. Questioning a stock's value is an existential question that applies to everything that we buy, hold, or sell.

It's likely that this answer won't satisfy you, but it shouldn't. Nobody should ever feel that they "know" the value of a stock, that's preposterous.

[sopooneo]

I don't think this is right. I don't think it's just in the eye of the beholder, and it is not turtles all the way down. It may be 5,000 layers deep, with people believing what people will believe what people will believe what people will believe. But at it's base, at the bottom, is at least the idea of people who want stocks because you get payed dividends for having them, or might hope to get payed in the future.

Imagine I was a business owner and I made up a new thing called "bleg". The way this works is that I need a new roof for my factory, but I'd rather not borrow the money for it from a bank. Instead I tell all my friends and family, "hey! Give me some money for my business, and in return I will issue you shares of bleg!" And my family says, "oh cool! great! what does bleg get me?" And I respond, "well it get's you a percentage of the total outstanding bleg, of course!" And my friends ask if owning bleg will get them the chance to vote on how my store is run. And I say "No!" And they say, "If you do really well one year, can we have some of your profits?" And I say "No! You don't get that either!"

No on would want bleg. And no one would think that others might eventually want it, so they should get in early before bleg blows up. No, bleg would flop.

[dpark]

> I don't think this is right. I don't think it's just in the eye of the beholder, and it is not turtles all the way down. It may be 5,000 layers deep, with people believing what people will believe what people will believe what people will believe. But at it's base, at the bottom, is at least the idea of people who want stocks because you get payed dividends for having them, or might hope to get payed in the future.

Some people might do that. Others might hope that the company they're buying shares in will be purchased and they'll make money on the deal. Others might hope that they can simply sell the shares in the future for a higher price.

> Imagine I was a business owner and I made up a new thing called "bleg". The way this works is that I need a new roof for my factory, but I'd rather not borrow the money for it from a bank. Instead I tell all my friends and family, "hey! Give me some money for my business, and in return I will issue you shares of bleg!" And my family says, "oh cool! great! what does bleg get me?" And I respond, "well it get's you a percentage of the total outstanding bleg, of course!" And my friends ask if owning bleg will get them the chance to vote on how my store is run. And I say "No!" And they say, "If you do really well one year, can we have some of your profits?" And I say "No! You don't get that either!" > No on would want bleg. And no one would think that others might eventually want it, so they should get in early before bleg blows up. No, bleg would flop.

Of course bleg would flop. You defined it to have no value. If instead bleg were a percentage ownership in the company, people might indeed buy bleg (and they do, but they call it shares of stock).