Ask HN: I can't find a job. What do I do?

[pythonb3sss]

I'm a software engineer working at a startup. This was my first job that I got 3 years after I dropped out of college and I have been working here for three and a half years. I like the work and I am excellent at it. But I have learnt everything that I know about programming on the job and that has been stagnant for a while now. I tried looking for a new job and in the last 6 months I've applied for a hundred jobs but haven't gotten one interview call. The best I've gotten is a link to an online leetcode-style test and I suck at those too. How do I make my skills visible? Some info about me. I'm 27 years old, from India and I don't have a bachelor degree (had to drop out due to health issues). The lack of bachelor's degree is the biggest blocker I'm dealing with. Even the few contacts that I have right now say that my CV will not even be considered for even an entry level role at their companies because of that. My manager at my current job has been becoming more and more toxic. Calling me to ask why I'm taking a paid leave, pinging me multiple times a day for updates and expecting me to be on call outside of work hours (someone was fired recently and this was one of the reasons). I just need some advice from people who hire developers. What can I do that would make you look past my lack of educational qualifications?

[elmerfud]

You say you're from India but don't say where you're at now. Since you used term CV instead of resume, maybe still in India or maybe a European country? If the job market where you're at is largely expecting a University degree regardless of experience level then I would say at 27 go back and get your University degree. It is not a step backwards to get the University degree it will teach you valuable things that you will never learn from experience alone. The theory about why things are done the way they are is an important thing to develop future skills in future problem solving.

Your other option would be to change job markets to where they don't prioritize the University degree after you've had some job experience. That being said 3 years of job experience is not a replacement for a 4 University degree. Even in the United States where it is still possible to work your way into positions without the University degree that is simply not enough experience to be considered. At dropping out of college and 3 years of experience you would still be looking at a non-software engineer entry level position. You would be doing support or systems administration and from there you could demonstrate the skills to move into a software engineering position.

Some other red flags are you say this is your first job you've had and you got it 3 years after you dropped out of University. Health, family, life situations do come up that cause you to take this kind of break in these kind of gaps but employers don't care. As people they may understand these things happen but as an employer looking for an employee they don't care. That's why I really think overall your best option return to University complete the degree and then with the degree your prior experience will matter and that Gap will go away.

[pythonb3sss]

Still in India. And I will not learn a single new thing if I go back to university, unless it's a good one, and I'll have to compete with more than 1 million students to get into one of those and there are maybe 15-30k vacancies per year. In the rest of them, the lecturers just dictate what you need to cram into your brain and vomit it out on the answer sheet and that's it. Lecture done.

[elmerfud]

All that being true, your own post says that's the thing blocking you from getting another job, a better job. So even if you learn nothing (which I doubt) it's still what's holding you back. Check out this HN post, I think it's relevant.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38317087

You have to look at things from a practical perspective and leave ego aside. Getting a job is selling yourself. Look at all the things sales people do to sell a product. Your the product, the buyers want to see a degree, even if it's from a mediocre university. So, you can remain where you're at and keep looking for the 1 in a million job while those people who did the University thing get there CV's moved higher up the stack.

Otherwise you're looking to move to a place where they don't care, but again you're looking at an entry level non programing job. You will have to prove yourself for at least 7-10 years with no degree, or become well known in the industry for your area. Doing that requires a lot of networking. Attend every users group and conference. Become a presenter, etc...

[Flammy]

> And I will not learn a single new thing if I go back to university, unless it's a good one

While I understand the Indian University sentiment here, there are many other opportunities for learning AND promoting yourself at the same time. For example, contributing to open-source software (especially software that is used by corporations) is a classic route for a reason.

[meiraleal]

What kind of magic advice you want then? You gotta at least put more effort than the rest getting the job you want.

[hef19898]

I never hired for software devs, so take the following with a grain of salt.

Agree in the return to university part. 27, three years of experience and no bachelors degree don't stack up well against someone with a bachelors and more experience, who can easily be younger. Life and health issues happen, living through them can nake you tougher and more resilient. That isba story to sell in an interview. Getting one is the problem now.

Hence, go back to university, get your degree (I'd say with ypur experience it would be easier than without), work as much as possibel during your studies, internships, working student jobs. But do not worl full time (I did during my masters, it worked, but took 4.5 years and instead of 18 months, I had a diploma begore, so time didn't matter for me, it does for you so).

Those interships and student jobs, in industry and not academia, shoupd be easier to get with relevant work experience. And they give you contacts and a foot in the door for a full time job after graduation.

[stemlord]

Not only will going back to get the degree help OP be considered for jobs but there are also a few other benefits I can think of:

- Networking. Much easier to meet people when you belong to the school's institution and get feet in doors. At least in the US, the university to industry pipeline is strong. Businesses have a sense of trust of quality for students coming from certain schools and will prioritize you.

- Now that you're older and have experience in the real world, you will get MUCH more bang for your buck at school. You know what you want and will be able to steer your future career much more effectively.

[coolThingsFirst]

Are you saying employers care deeply about the 3 year gap or don’t?

[rossdavidh]

Lots of other advice here but just wanted to add one piece: when you do get interviews, beware of anything that sounds too negative about your current (or past) employer. Even though the fact that you're looking for work basically implies that you are unsatisfied, if your tone or language is negative it will give the impression that you are a negative person.

So, when you do get that interview, just say that the opportunities for learning new things are your current job are limited, or something else that is true but not too negative-sounding. I have seen candidates who trash talk their current or former employer in an interview get rejected for that reason, because immediately people wonder, "will they talk like that about us if they get this job?"

Also, keep in mind that the problem is not you, it's that the programmer job market is saturated with the Big Tech layoffs from earlier in the year, so keep your self-esteem up and your skills sharp and in time things will turn around.

[2OEH8eoCRo0]

> if your tone or language is negative it will give the impression that you are a negative person.

I had this backfire. I left a job after dealing with toxic and personal BS and passed all my interviews at a great company. Then came the personal references where one must be my previous manager. My previous manager trashed me and gave me a bad reference and I didn't get the job.

In the future I didn't hold back on why I left and got the next job.

[dharmab]

In the US, the only information required to be given by a previous employer is time of employment, role, and whether the person is eligible for rehire. Reputable companies will ask and provide strictly this information only, to reduce their liability.

[milesskorpen]

This is not accurate across the board. References (inc. back channel references) are common for companies that take hiring very seriously.

[rossdavidh]

Many organizations forbid providing references, but then this policy is hard to enforce. It is weird to be asked for a reference from your current employer, though.

[dhimes]

Good context. The point GP was making was that toxic manager went out of their way to trash them.

[wahnfrieden]

Vindictive bosses/owners will do as they please

[jacquesm]

They will, but some of that is actionable.

[chiefalchemist]

My stock answer for leaving is "too low of a ceiling". That's usually a combo of "management and leadership sucks" and "there's no future or upward career path for me". I might add "I'm looking for a place where being put in a position that leads to success is the rule not the exception." Or something like. I mean "I love where I am" doesn't square with looking to leave, does it?

I'm an East Coast straight shooter and I feel that's enough to get my point across and let them know what my expectations and intentions are. If they're also running a shit show they'll put one and one together and figure out I'm not a good fit. If they're ligit they'll appreciate the toned down honesty.

At least that's what I hope for sone shit shows don't seem to recognize that. It's Dunning Krueger at the organizational level. Frustrating.

[flashback2199]

If I'm hiring and you have no degree, no portfolio, and can't leetcode, I have zero evidence you are good at anything at all. That seems like your "blocker"... Anyone can make stuff up on paper as others have already said, and everyone knows this.

[bakuninsbart]

Leetcode is the Equalizer that makes having a degree less relevant in the field. Without a degree it is exactly the lever you're looking for for getting jobs. It might be a lot of effort, but it is a reasonable expectation for getting a job in SE.

The other two things that can really make a difference are either having good personal projects uploaded on GitHub, or contributing to relevant open source projects.

As a disclaimer, I'm not senior/experienced enough myself to be much involved in hiring.

[ilaksh]

I'm from the US and I also don't have a degree. I think it's true that does make it harder.

I have avoided applying for traditional jobs for the last 10-15 years and instead focused on "freelance" (mainly Upwork). For several reasons: because it was easier to get remote work that way, because I wanted to make sure I had time to work on my own startups, to try to avoid office politics, and because it was actually easier to get that type of work instead of "real" jobs.

Basically, I "outsourced myself".

The reality for me has been a pretty poor income. Although there have been a few times where I managed to get something like a business going for a short time. And I have not been without work for any significant amount of time.

Anyway, even though it also can be brutal to find work and you have to watch out for awful clients which are plentiful, Upwork (and relatively few other sites/apps) now has a virtual monopoly on online freelance work. At least for any project which has significant budget constraints.

You can go on there and find something that looks like a spec and just pretend they hired you. Build it out and put it in your GitHub and developer profile. Keep doing that for some months and eventually you can build up some projects in some areas and be confident that you can apply for them and they will see related work in your profile.

Another aspect of this is networking. That doesn't come naturally to me and I have had limited success. But about 1.5-2 years ago I did manage to get myself accepted into a particular community and niche where I had a web application that was popular with users in that niche.

From that web application and through referrals in that community, I managed to get away from Upwork for awhile and pick up contracts directly through Discord.

I think the key there was being embedded in that specific community with software that was used for that specific niche application inside of that community.

So you could try that. Literally find some activity or interest group that seems interesting to you and just get absorbed into it to the point where you are figuring out how to make tools that you know for sure will help people in that community do that specific task. Easier said than done. But doable.

[ayewo]

Mind sharing the Discord server?

I recently learned that there are websites out there that serve as aggregators for the plethora of Discord communities out there. E.g: https://discadia.com/ and https://disboard.org/

[ilaksh]

It was a group of Discord servers for specific subcommunities. But mainly direct referrals.

[throwaway4233]

> What can I do that would make you look past my lack of educational qualifications?

1. If you are in India, create profiles for yourself on job seeking websites such as AngelList, LinkedIn or Hirist. When I was part of a hiring team, I(and peers) used to go through profiles on these websites with filters for the skills we were looking for, and then ask the recruitment team to reach out to candidates we found interesting. If an engineer or a lead takes a look at your profile and feels that your skills meet what they are looking for, they are highly likely to overlook the lack of a degree.

2. Network. If your resume does not get your foot through the door, try to go to language specific meetups and socialize. The whole `need a degree to work here` is a HR thing and just a way for them to reduce the applications they receive. A referral from someone within the company would usually skip that barrier.

3. Apply to any and all openings that you feel that you are a suitable fit for. Do not let the `CV will not even be considered for even an entry level role at their companies because of that` thought stop you, and let the person looking at your resume decide if you are a fit or not.

> How do I make my skills visible?

Points 1 and 2 should help with this. Apply to one of the free courses on Udemy or Coursera and complete the courses to get a certificate. Have a colleague whom you work with leave a recommendation or endorse you for skills on LinkedIn. I used to receive offers for a IOS mobile dev roles even years after I stopped working with Swift just because of one single skill endorsement.

I believe you have not asked for this, but I would definitely recommend getting a degree, even if it were a distance learning course that you can do while you work.

[lonesword]

Add the name of the institution you went to to your resume and add "dropped out due to health reasons" in tiny (but still readable) font underneath. This will get you past most automated HR filters without you having to be dishonest. Since you already have some experience, I do not think anyone will bring up your education in an actual interview unless you bring it up.

Context - I'm from India, and works at big tech. I do have a degree, but no employer has every asked to see it. They just want to know that I _went_ to a college, doesn't matter if I graduated or not.

> What can I do that would make you look past my lack of educational qualifications?

Your own one-person software-as-a-service business or relevant side projects. Hard to argue that you are not qualified when you can point them to github/website and say "I made this".

[rvz]

> I just need some advice from people who hire developers. What can I do that would make you look past my lack of educational qualifications?

The environment has changed since the zero interest rate era ended and now with AI quite frankly I'm afraid it will only get even worse which means less developers would need to be hired. Even if you get an interview, it is the Leetcode and algorithms pseudo IQ test bullshit that will be used to filter anyone out.

> How do I make my skills visible?

If I were you, I'd create a bunch personal side-projects and do some networking. As long as you have something to show, it is worth more than a 'degree'. Even better if it profitable and pays the bills.

You never know if you don't try. You might even spin it out into a business which you will be hiring developers yourself.

[Michelangelo11]

This. Unfortunately I think the SWE job market is only going to get worse.

[metabagel]

I’m not a manager, but I think attitude goes a long way. Demonstrate an enjoyment in the social interaction and problem solving which comprise your career.

In the interview, be able to both explain technical decisions you have made on the job and answer technical questions. If you don’t know the answer, say what you do know, so the interviewer can get your thought process.

Internally, try to let your anxiety, frustration, and fears dissipate (don’t hang onto them). Optimism is good for your mental health, and it is a visible and desirable trait in a prospective employee or colleague.

Be authentically enthusiastic, but try to avoid coming across as over-eager. Try to maintain a pleasant, neutral, but thoughtful demeanor in the interview.

Good luck!

[kraig911]

I've got years of experience. Honestly don't blame yourself we are in a weird economic time. A lot of people went and got some 'formal' education. Maybe try to differentiate? Learn embedded systems? Learn AI (seems we're all going to have to sooner or later) Learn C++? Maybe learn soft skills like being a product owner? Roll up your sleeves and start your own business? (that's what i'm trying to do) but most of all it sounds like you want it easy - Don't become complacent. If you want jobs that do leet style interviews you're going to have to learn. At the very least binary trees, tree graph search, quicksort, those sort of things.

[uptownfunk]

Build a portfolio. I’ve been in the industry 20+ years across eng/product/science and led orgs over from 10 people to 300+ people across FAANG and big tech and all I care about when I hire is do you: 1/work hard 2/deliver reasonably on time 3/have a good attitude 4/ leave your politics at home

I don’t care about your age / gender identity / if you are remote / have a degree / are disabled.. or really anything else. i will bend over backwards to get people who can provide evidence of the above..

Best of luck

[rhelz]

I’ve been a professional programmer since the Reagan administration, and interviews have never changed. Think of them more like fraternity hazing during pledge week.

The reality is you have to be good at leetcode-style programming.

It’s hard to think of going back to college—after you have lived like an adult it’s hard, but it’s not a bad idea.

Most jobs still come from friends and recommendations so go to be as sociable as you can.

Not easy :-( but it’s only going to get harder from here, so the soooner you start the better.

[ak_111]

Lots of certification for enterprise IT software might be a good way to get on the ladder. Look at the certification for SAP, Salesforce, Oracle, Azure, AWS, Cisco (on the other hand avoid most bootcamp "certifications").

Those entry jobs are not great in terms of salary and workload, but there is huge demand for analyst using these tools and having a certification might compensate for the lack of degree.

[strangesmells06]

Have several of those. Doesnt help. Lol

[ak_111]

Which ones do you have and which jobs are you targeting? Do you not even notice an uptick in interview requests?

[msabalau]

You mentioned applying to a hundred jobs over a six month period.

When I seriously needed a job as a less senior person, I targeted closer to 100 applications a week. Maybe only a few of these will be "high effort" dramatically recrafting a cover letter and resume, but you can also get responses from "there is a reasonable fit" opportunities and applying with one of a handful of stock resumes.

If your best tailored resume given who you are has a 1% chance of a response and a "good enough" resume has a 0.5% chance of response, you need to play the numbers game and apply a lot more, not hope wordsmithing will make "not having a education" dramatically more appealing and change minds.

Marketers like good messages for their direct mail campaigns, but what they need is to be able to cost effectively get their message in front of a lot of the right people, because most won't respond. As one of many junior people trying to land one of many (slightly less)junior jobs, you need to play this numbers game too.

[strangesmells06]

I have a decade of experience and a masters degree.

Devoted the best parts of my life to 50-60 hour weeks in tech.

Im about to go work at an Amazon warehouse.

Tech is basically over now.

[monster_group]

Can you elaborate? Are you taking this decision willingly or are being forced to because you can't clear interviews?

[gaws]

Based on the doomer tone, it was probably the latter.

[strangesmells06]

Lol gotta get interviews to fail them

[haskellandchill]

I delivered pizzas and worked as a cook to stretch a gap before. You can keep applying while at the warehouse. Market is rough right now, I quit a well paying remote job where I was on a good career track and I'm kicking myself right now. I expect to find something by March next year and will probably liquidate my valuables to stretch.

[victor9000]

Have a portfolio presence online somewhere, or figure out a way to demo your side projects. Fill out your linkedin profile with as many details as possible. Try to get endorsements from your peers for the various skills you use at work. If your GPA was solid, then list that on your resume and say your degree is still in progress. Apply to smaller companies that may be more willing to overlook these requirements. Compare your resume to that of your peers or others you find online and look for anything you forgot to add. You should still have a plan for finishing your degree because it's still no too late. I didn't finish my degree until I was 26 and I'm currently in my 40s working as a Principal Engineer.

[Yoric]

Have you considered contributing to open-source projects? Some like Firefox have mentoring programs (https://codetribute.mozilla.org/). Very good for the resume.

[mikeymz]

Put your part completed degree on your CV with a caveat like its pending or incomplete. It should get you passed the initial screening. Then it's on you to pass the tech test. Expect to fail many before you get good at them

[chaostheory]

> pinging me multiple times a day for updates

It tends to be part of the job, though in your case it might be that your manager isn’t technical because git and continuous integration do the same thing without your manager pestering you

> expecting me to be on call outside of work hours

Part of the job especially when there are either tight deadlines or bad bugs

You need a degree. Fortunately, there are now many reputable and inexpensive online options especially via public universities

The other riskier option is to learn a very niche programming language with a small talent pool like cobal.

The best option is to do both uni and learning the niche programming language

[ailef]

> Part of the job especially when there are either tight deadlines or bad bugs

It's fine if this happens occasionally on deadlines or unexpected problems.

But it definitely shouldn't be part of any (good) job unless your contract explicitly provides for this possibility (with extra compensation).

[jacquesm]

You may want to try going the self-employed/freelancer route. Just try to get at least one paying side job where you can charge a reasonable hourly rate and take it from there. If it doesn't work out you can fall back on what you have and if it does then you can try to expand it. Relatively little risk, and if it works you're free from the gatekeeping because in my experience for self-employed people credentials matter a lot less than work experience. Best of luck!

[jacknews]

"Just try to get at least one paying side job where you can charge a reasonable hourly rate"

Ay, there's the rub.

[jacquesm]

Not an employment, just a freelancer arrangement.

[jacknews]

Even that. Have you been on the freelancer,upwork,etc boards lately? And unfortunately not everyone is such an expert consultant as you.

[monster_group]

You don't need to get a degree from a top college or even a good one. Just get any easy degree through online / distance learning program to get past filters and dumb HR criteria. For online / distance learning degrees you wouldn't need to compete with million other students. As you get your online degree, you can keep looking for jobs and also work if you can find a job.

[meiraleal]

> How do I make my skills visible?

What skills do you have? Being in a company for 3 years makes you proficient at their systems, which makes you less hire-able.

> What can I do that would make you look past my lack of educational qualifications?

have lots of successful apps running and profitable, yours or developed for clients. You gotta be good to be hired now that the free money is over.

[rr808]

Every developer needs to be good a leetcode now to be able to get hired. This is especially true if you dont have a degree.

[hn72774]

Not necessarily leetcode, but certainly be able to decompose a problem and implement it with someone else looking at your screen and collaborating.

[MattPalmer1086]

Personally, I'd get a degree, doesn't have to be from a top tier university.

Early in my career I managed to get development work without a technical degree (I had one in music), but found it hard to get interviews. I did a master's degree distance learning while I worked. That seemed to help me.

[John7149]

Get back to college. In coming recession around the corner 2024 to 2026 extremely likely. You go into college and get shielded. Study hard and score well. Get all the pro certs you can. Do master if possible. Specialize only on AI+Blockchain (using Java+Python+Rust+C). You will thank me later.

[gaws]

What are you basing all this?

[yowlingcat]

I would highly recommend going back to college. It seems you have the skills, but the credentials will unlock doors. In this economy where the upper hand has shifted back to employers over candidates, you need every bit of help you can.

[Brajeshwar]

Hey, if you are comfortable reaching out, can you email me? I will see how I can help and hopefully connect you to the right channels (either here in India or otherwise).

(I could not find any way to contact you.)

[foogazi]

> The best I've gotten is a link to an online leetcode-style test and I suck at those too.

Practice more until you suck less

[decide1000]

Drop me a message. Email on profile.

[howon92]

> The best I've gotten is a link to an online leetcode-style test and I suck at those too

Get better at it by practicing more.

[notpachet]

Screw that. There are lots of jobs out there that don't gatekeep on leetcode and it sounds like the OP would find those more fulfilling.

[hipadev23]

Just say you have a degree, especially from India, nobody will validate.

[pythonb3sss]

I don't want to lie to get a job. And companies do verify. Maybe not small startups, but everyone else does. And those small startups will start verifying when they grow.

[ayewo]

You didn’t state where you are based now. Are you still in India or you moved elsewhere?

[pythonb3sss]

Still in India. The layoffs and the recent batch of fresh graduates have really made it impossible to get a job as companies can basically take their pick. Immediate joiners, low salary expectations, work experience from FAANG like companies. And then there's the great vanishing of VC money as interest rates have been raised sharply

[ayewo]

In addition to the many suggestions offered above, you could also try your hand creating a portfolio by contributing to open source projects.

If you don’t know where to start, you could start by reviewing COSS (commercial open source software) projects that need help from contributors in exchange for payment (aka bounties) on Algora [1].

Issues typically have a dollar amount attached to them and the dollar amount is often a proxy of how much effort it would take you to complete it.

So, a $20 issue could probably take you a few mins to complete, while a $200 ticket could probably take you a few hours to a few days, if you are not familiar with the codebase/stack.

Note that competition is fierce for the “easy” tasks on Algora and many Algora regulars will open a PR (pull request) within minutes of a bounty being available publicly.

Good luck!

1: https://console.algora.io/events

[corethree]

This. I'm close friends with someone who is extensively dishonest in his resume. Most places just don't verify things.

[coolThingsFirst]

How do you lie for experience though? Defunct company? What if they ask for reference?

[hipadev23]

I can't speak for that person in particular, but my point was lie about degree because it doesn't matter if you're a good coder and able to deliver results. If you have no skills then lying will be a problem on your first day of work.

[hx8]

This is claiming an accomplishment that was not achieved for the intent of financial gain.

You are suggesting fraud.

[hipadev23]

That's not how fraud works in a legal sense between private parties. It's a job. They pay him to perform work, not to accurately represent whether or not he earned a piece of paper.

If he's taking government benefits explicitly intended for degree holders, that is fraud, and not what I'm suggesting. He doesn't need a degree to slap some shitty code together for some half-baked statup.

[hx8]

I think the primary reasons to not be fraudulent are outside of any legal liabilities. I think the fact that you defended your advice about lying by saying it is not illegal says a lot about your attitude and worldview.

[hipadev23]

Absolutely it is. I don’t approve of arbitrary gatekeeping (degrees) to prevent people from having opportunities to put dinner on the table.

At the end of the day what matters is whether or not you deliver value to the company, and if one is capable of doing that, the employer doesn’t give a fuck about degrees. It’s to hack the bullshit HR/interview process.

I think your comments show you’re a weak-willed follower of arbitrary rules that would rather let their family starve than break-in to a store and steal some bread during a crisis.

[hx8]

Yes, I am against lying and stealing.

[eloisant]

That's not true, many companies use a background check company (like ClearStar) after you sign your offer and they check that you do have the diplomas you claim.

[lcall]

Based on experience, I suggesting finding your local missionaries of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist) and ask them to put you in contact with your current local ward bishop, wherever you are now, who has access to resources (including an employment agency, depending on whether it is set up in your area), and good, practical advice for your specific situation. (Thoughtful comments appreciated with the downvotes; thank you.)