[meepmorp]

I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions eliminated. They frequently work to keep people in jobs when they really need to be removed from their position, and given the huge amount of power officers have over vulnerable people, that's very much not in our collective best interest.

We need to police the police much more strictly.

[pixl97]

>I'd also like to see police and prison officer's unions eliminated.

There is a particular balance that is needed here... This just shifts the abuse to the typical abuse non-unionized workers receive. Low pay, bad working conditions, dangerous working conditions which leads to more staff rotation and increasing danger in the work environment.

[storf45]

Can you speak more to what balance is needed? Not being able to terminate bad actors severely impacts the ability to improve the situation. The union rep seemed to shift blame throughout out the entire article.

From the article:

Bergami and Whitmore said they also tried to fire an officer who they saw on video throwing away prisoners’ mail, a possible felony. The agency also overruled them in that decision, they said. The bureau did not respond to allegations of staff destroying mail.“How do you root out the bad apples if you're not allowed to terminate those who have been recommended for termination?” Whitmore said.The two former Thomson officials and a current prison employee said the attitude among many guards was reflected by a group who refused to wear their issued uniforms. These officers opted instead for black T-shirts, many with the union logo or the skull logo of The Punisher — a vigilante comic book character popular with far-right groups. They called themselves “The Black Shirt Mafia.”

Also: Seems like they might be looking at lots of staff rotation anyway (union or not): https://www.ourquadcities.com/news/local-news/thomson-prison...

[TaylorAlexander]

The general argument from the pro-unionists is that police are agents of the state and agents of the state aren’t normal workers in need of typical union protections.

[vkou]

I'm a pro-unionist, anti-police, and I don't really buy that argument.

All that you need is rule of law, rather than carving out special cases for police unions.

Unfortunately, while all animals are equal under the law, but some animals are more equal[1] then others...

[1] Still waiting for a cop in my town going 50 over the speed limit, with no lights or sirens running down a woman at a pedestrian crossing to be charged. We're almost coming up to a year anniversary on it!

[lesuorac]

I wouldn't recommend making a special case for _police_ unions.

Unions shouldn't be allow to have management and non-management in the same union. The guy evaluating your performance (police commissioner) should not be allowed to be in the same union regardless of if you are police or tech.

[pixl97]

Why would the state not abuse its workers? In theory the 'union' portion of representation should be codified into the rules the departments are under, but they are not. Prisons will gladly have you work double shifts where they are allowed even though it's insanely dangerous.

[giraffe_lady]

Cops and prison guards aren't workers in the sense that labor unions are based on. They are part of the infrastructure that determines who works, where & how, under what conditions, and to whose benefit. I don't mean to dehumanize them but in the mechanism of labor relations their role is more related to coordination and coercion than it is to production.

Like if everyone's bosses organized, what they would have isn't a labor union but something else. Police unions use the nomenclature of labor unions but they are actually a different thing.

[pixl97]

" prison guards aren't workers in the sense that labor unions are based on"

So, this shows that you have zero idea what the inside of prisons are like for it's employees.

A captain level at a jail would tell a corrections officer to go into a pit of angry inmates in a heartbeat, and in general the unions for these officers are what help push the rules to keep said officers from getting killed, or working double shifts.

A good thing and a bad thing can happen with a system operating normally.

[giraffe_lady]

You're getting twisted up thinking I'm making a value judgement about morality or whatever; it's not about goodness or badness.

If a group of business owners coordinates for the benefit of their shared interests, what they have is a business association or chamber of commerce or cartel not a labor union. This is despite the fact that their work individually could be grueling or dangerous, or they have an even worse boss or whatever.

Cops and prison guards, like business owners, are part of the system that coordinates who produces value, when and where. But they do not produce that value, and so their organizations aren't labor unions. It's not merely a semantic point either: they have working conditions sure but their goals and tools are different because of this relationship. From a guard's perspective the ideal prison has no prisoners in it; the second best has them drugged and restrained at all times. How would a union reconcile either of these things?

And you're right, I've only ever been in a prison as a prisoner. What's your experience being employed in one?

[pixl97]

>What's your experience being employed in one

A very close family member had a 27 year career as a corrections officer until they retired.

But pretty much point you on here is stupid beyond belief. Do you think anyone at any job wants to do anything if the other option was getting paid for doing nothing?

The workers at low levels in these organizations are treated like shit, just like every business that has low paid, low skill jobs. Why in the living hell would you think that a corrections officer is "part of the system". I'd say, "Hey go get one of those jobs and you'll see", but it sounds like you're eliminated from the category.

[giraffe_lady]

Again and again you are refusing to see that it's not about how much the job sucks but about what the work produces. A prison produces no value is it rent-seeking at best.

Go read some theory man I'm not going to try to explain it again. I literally got a TBI in there but I'm starting to suspect that between the two of us I'm the one with less brain damage from associating with prisons.

[zem]

and it will in turn lead to situations where bribes are a cop's main source of income