[tomohelix]

Reading into the press release, there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B. PERM certification is not the same labor certification done in H1B.

PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process and it costs a lot more money than anything related to H1B. The reason is because it leads to a green card, not just a work permit. Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters. The money is paid upfront and USCIS then look into it and approves PERM on a case by case basis often taking a year or more. Then when the PERM passes, the applicant can finally get on the green card backlog and wait a few more years, or a decade if you were born in the wrong place...

This is to say the quality of applicants here is very high and Apple actually felt it was worth it to invest tens of thousands of dollars on each of them just for a green card gamble, which the employee can get then quit Apple immediately after and nothing can be done to them because they are now a permanent resident. No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2.

[pavlov]

This.

If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain.

There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple. They’re already in the country and have been doing the work for years. Why not give them a path to a green card? Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open?

I’ll admit that I’m biased because I was in this process at one point. But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before. So if anything, I brought a UK job to USA. And to turn that into a green card, the company would have to advertise the job on their website. It makes no sense.

[microtherion]

> If the PERM process at Apple is anything like what I saw at Facebook a couple of years ago, then all these “applicants” are actually people already working at the company on non-immigrant visas whom the company wants to retain.

Indeed. I really doubt Apple prefers foreigners in their hiring (it's a rather significant hassle to bring somebody in). If anything, citizens have some edge.

But once an immigrant has been hired, the PERM process essentially would require trying to hire for that position again, and employers (not just Apple) are anything but motivated to replace an experienced and qualified employee with several years' experience at the company with an untested new hire, so they treat this process as a Kabuki performance.

[iaseiadit]

I highly doubt it’s a top-down decision to prefer foreign applicants at Apple. But that said, it’s common in FAANG to find scenarios where a manager is of a certain background, and 90% of the people under just happen to be of the same background, and nobody says anything.

[throwaway12355]

That's very common with one or two specific demographic, but not all that common with most others. I'll refrain from naming them, but it's widely known i suppose.

[microtherion]

I can think of three demographics, one of which, of course, is Americans themselves.

[hume77]

In my 20 years at multiple companies I have rarely seen the Americans not try to create a diverse team. The other ones we all know on the other hand….

[sangnoir]

> Why not give them a path to a green card?

Because it's illegal to (positively) discriminate for these people and shield them from competing with American citizens and GC-holders for jobs.

> Why make the company jump through hoops like having to advertise a position that’s not actually open?

As Apple just found out: creating a fake position to end-run immigration law is illegal.

[ericye16]

I think the point is that immigration law should be changed so companies don't have to jump through hoops like this.

[sangnoir]

I too believe there has to be reform, but I also believe this is Apple being lazy/doing this for convenience.

If the individuals are more skilled than citizens, the Apple should have been prepared to open the interviews for those jobs to everyone (including citizens and permanent residents), selected the (person they knew to have been) the best and gotten the paperwork in order. The subterfuge would be completely unnecessary if they applied under the correct visa class and skills of those involved are as advertised.

[bubblethink]

There is no such thing as correct class. Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents. And almost everyone needs to go through the same process which involves this PERM business. And everyone needs to participate in this charade of hiring someone once, then pretending that they don't have the employee, and then emerging victorious by putting out an ad that only that person satisfies. The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired.

[sangnoir]

> Broadly speaking, there are temporary workers who can eventually become permanent residents.

The laws governing immigration are very specific about the distinctions between visa classes and the requirements for each class- and the devil is in the details.

> The competition and interviews already happened when the person was first hired.

Perhaps, but that is your and Apple's (tacit) opinions. The government of the United States disagrees, and Apple just paid $25 million dollars to avoid getting this issue in front of a judge.

The difference in perspective, AFAICT, is you think a GC is a reward for getting a job after besting others (including citizens) in interviews. The government's contention is that the bar is higher: PERM is for jobs no American citizen or permanent resident are able and willing to do[1]. There are separate visa classes for being merely good, and being irreplaceable. Pretending that a candidate who is in the former group belongs to the latter by posting jobs on a noticeboard in an unlit basement without stairs is dishonest.

1. "The DOL must certify to the USCIS that there are not sufficient U.S. workers able, willing, qualified, and available to accept the job opportunity in the area of intended employment"

[theGnuMe]

They are not supposed to jump through hoops. They created these positions, did not advertise them externally like other jobs the solicit for nor accept electronic submissions. You know those job notices in some random “break room” stapled to the notification board? That’s what this is and why they got nailed.

[Racing0461]

Canada did that. Obliterated their white collar job market. Worked out well for every one but the canadian born worker.

[janalsncm]

> There is no reason to assume that they’re being paid any less than others at Apple.

Sure there is. The fact that permanent residency costs money and is often desirable means that there is value in a PERM position over a comparable one with no path to permanent residency. Therefore it is only natural for applicants to require less money to find the compensation desirable.

[User23]

> But the notion that I was taking the job of a native-born American was ridiculous because I had been doing the job in London before.

This isn’t even wrong.

Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

[chabons]

> Obviously you displaced a US citizen [...]

I'm not sure this is obvious. 1) Apple is a multi-national company, and hires an employee in the UK. 2) This employee relocates to the US

At what point do they displace the US citizen? All Apple jobs are not earmarked for US citizens (+residents, etc...), and they're already doing the job when they move to the US. Unless they're hired abroad for the express purpose of relocating to the US, then it's not "obvious" to me that they've displaced anyone.

Suppose I work in an org with dev teams in multiple countries. If I relocate from one site to another, am I freeing up a slot in the country I leave and taking one in the country I move to?

[4death4]

According to TFA, the discrimination happens when Apple doesn’t adequately look for a U.S. employee and instead chooses to to relocate you to the US. How is that not obvious? If Apple is happy to hire you in the UK and you’re happy to live there, the DOJ isn’t going to ask many questions.

[izardak]

This discussion is about EB2/green card process, not L1/H1 visa that employee is given when relocating to the US. That is why it is not obvoius. In a lot of cases, an employee works in UK (or another European) office for many years, then moves to the US on L1A visa, works there for several years, applies to green card (not with intent to stay in US forever, but because L1 visa (and H1 too) cannot be extended for more than 5/6 years). Then to get this EB2/green card document employer has to pretend that they plan to replace this person who is already working in this organization for 10 or more years. It is not specific for Apple, Intel is doing the same when a CPU architect from Haifa or fab engineer from Dublin is working in Hillsboro for several years and decide to stay for a few more years. Or google bringing someone from Zurich.

[4death4]

Yes… and you’re not allowed to do that unless you truly can’t find an American to fill the role.

[chabons]

Right, but the argument that the original comment was making is that the government's policy is incorrect.

My comment argues that independent of government policy, relocating an existing employee from one country to another does not consume a position that was otherwise free, unless the employee was hired expressly for the purpose of relocation.

[theGnuMe]

Yes you are doing both actually.

There is a special visa for this. In the US it is an L1 visa.

[BurningFrog]

Many engineering teams hire the good people they can find.

If one quits, nothing says you'll find another one, and you may keep going with one less person.

[Racing0461]

Unpopular opinion that throws a wrench into the whole h1b/eb1/eb2 debate. Being a rando sde (even at faang) isn't specialized. We have tpms getting eb1c (the einstein gc) which has now been backlogged for good reason. I think any loosening on h1bs/ebxs etc should coincide with the upping of the requirements to the o1 visa - https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary... but even this can be gamed.

[astrange]

This is what economists call a "partial equilibrium" analysis. This is a polite(?) academic way of saying it's wrong.

Hiring workers does not displace other workers because they come with increased demand for labor of their own. It does increase specialization on the team because you need to find comparative advantage, but that's nearly as much of an issue.

[User23]

Ah, Ricardo. Did you know he was a stockbroker who made his fortune scamming clients and bought himself a peerage with the loot? Not relevant but a fun biographical detail.

Anyhow his theory rests on assumptions that are nonsensical in today’s economy.[1]

Instead we have “labor arbitrage” which is to say workers being displaced.

[1] https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1674...

[pavlov]

> Obviously you displaced a US citizen unless you’re trying to advance the risible position that no US citizen could do what you do.

I didn't displace anyone because the headcount in my department was global, not tied to location.

I know it's hard to accept for people with old-fashioned nationalist ideas about immigration, but a lot of well-paid jobs these days can be done anywhere in the world.

These are not jobs in America, but rather they are jobs at American companies. And with these immigration policies you're doing your best to make sure the job doesn't get done in America.

For myself, I left the US but still work for an American company. They pay me a California-level salary but I pay my taxes to Finland. From your point of view that must be somehow better than if I was doing the same job but paying taxes to USA? You're losing out on the tax revenue, but at least you don't have people like me as neighbors, so all is good, I guess.

[dfadsadsf]

You are writing like we are talking about rocket scientists.

PERM applies to both EB2 and EB3 (so in real world anyone making from as low as $50k+/year depending on role qualifies) and most bodyshops apply for green card for all employees - it's just part of business cost. For EB2 PhD is not needed - MS from online paper mill is enough. For EB3, any degree works.

It's not tens of thousands in cost - it's below $10k all in. PERM Fees to USCIS are around $1200.

The whole system is abused to the end and need to be completely gutted and redone so high end engineer working for Google making $700k was differentiated from Wipro employee making $80k. Right now they are in the same queue. Prevailing wage is a joke as it does not include stock options and does not reflect real salary levels.

[tomohelix]

Hilariously enough, a real rocket scientist, e.g. a NASA scientist, has an average salary around 100K. SWE salary is heavily inflated and even the flawed process we have now is better than one where you only look at the absolute amount of compensation. Why, most scientist jobs requiring PhD pay less than 200K.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/NASA-Scientist-Salaries-E73...

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/posting/senior-scient...

I no longer know the current prices for EB2 total cost. But years back I know the cost was >10K+ per employee, accounting for multiple filings, expedited filings, lawyer fee, etc. I doubt it would be below 10K now. Even an NIW can cost 15K easily by going to a law firm and personally haggle the price with them. Can you tell me how do you know EB2 cost less than 10K?

An online paper mill graduate would have a very hard time passing EB2 vetting. Where would they get the paper citations, the impact, the achievements required? Unless they have years of experience in which they made clear they are valuable enough to the field. That is why I said experienced masters. And you think USCIS don't look at what institution the applicant comes from?

[geodel]

> An online paper mill graduate would have a very hard time passing EB2 vetting.

Nope. Not at all. I am rather intimately familiar with lot of people who have gone through that vaunted EB2 vetting with their fake US or foreign degrees, fake job experiences at fake companies with fake addresses and so on.

Few may get caught but most of them will get through the system with enough persistence.

[bubblethink]

EB2 has separate sub categories. Regular EB2 does not require papers or citations. It just needs an advanced degree or equivalent in experience. The categories that benefit from papers, citations etc., are EB2-NIW and EB1A/B. Those don't require PERM as USCIS takes on the role of the adjudicator there. PERM is handled by Dept. of Labor.

[philwelch]

Aerospace engineers at SpaceX earn 133-212k according to Glassdoor: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/SpaceX-Aerospace-Engineer-S...

NASA scientists don’t work on rockets; they design experiments for space missions and stuff like that.

[JAlexoid]

Why should someone making 700k be any different than an 80k employee?

Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

[Racing0461]

> Nurses make way less than 700k and should probably be the absolute top of the list.

actually, nurses are. The process apple discriminated in from the article, nurses are considered by statute to be "approved" so they just move on to the next step (i140/i485 or visa) which is just a rubber stamp assuming all the documents are in order.

> nurses to bypass the PERM certification process is the Schedule A designation. Schedule A is a list of pre-certified occupations that the Department of Labor (DOL) has determined there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified, and available. Because of this, employers seeking to hire foreign workers in these occupations do not need to go through the labor certification process, which is what PERM involves.

[ralph84]

Because if there was actually a shortage of $80k employees the salary would increase. There is no better way to determine where there’s a shortage than the salary.

[saagarjha]

That is categorically not how salaries work. SWE compensation is high because impact per worker is high, and because adding people doesn’t scale linearly, not because they’re somehow much more in demand.

[vkou]

Are you implying that there is an intractable shortage of CEOs in America, that it's MBA education system has utterly failed to meet demand for?

Would that explain why their salaries have skyrocketed over the past few decades?

[dfadsadsf]

There is shortage of world class CEOs in America. If we talk about Fortune 500 (the only ones where CEOs make a bank) - there are literally less than a thousand people who are or have been CEO of such companies. If we accept immigration system premise (you are qualified and are in similar role outside US right now) the pool of available candidates is likely few dozen people worldwide. The fact that millions of people may want that role is irrelevant as they are not qualified.

MBA education system is irrelevant too as it does not produce CEOs - it produces L4/L5 PMs few of whom after 30 years of stellar career will climb to be CEOs.

[LeroyRaz]

Gosh, it all makes sense now!

[dfadsadsf]

Why do you hate nurses and want their salary to go down? You understand that result of nurses getting top of the list priority will be lower salary? You can probably drive nurse salaries all the way down to 30k if US recognizes Philippine nurses degrees.

There is society need to drive down unreasonable salaries (700k at Google) - at minimum more cool stuff will be done in US. It’s much less clear that there is society need to drive down middle class salaries.

[rahimnathwani]

Why do you get to pick which occupations are most worthy?

[anonymouskimmer]

> Why do you get to pick which occupations are most worthy?

Citizens of Republics are given the inherent right to debate matters of public policy concern.

[rahimnathwani]

That right is inalienable, not given.

[anonymouskimmer]

Good catch.

[JAlexoid]

I don't, it's an example that compensation is by far the worst criteria.

I personally think that there should be an open door - don't be a drag on society - policy. If you can get a job, pay your bills - welcome to the USA.

[dataflow]

I think their unstated assumption is that higher pay = higher skill = harder to find.

[az226]

What % of approved PERM applications do you think had a salary of $50k? Clown.

[dfadsadsf]

5-10%? You would be surprised. I know person who got green card with ~$40k salary working as logistics manager in transport company.

[bubblethink]

>PERM is a much more rigorous and demanding process

It's not rigorous or demanding; it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank. From the article : It also required all PERM position applicants to mail paper applications, even though the company permitted electronic applications for other positions," the DOJ said.

>Apple actually felt it was worth it

Apple doesn't feel. It's just commonsense and market pressure. The alternative would be indefinite indentured servitude.

Dept. of Labor takes a year to evaluate these PERM applications. PERM has charming and quaint requirements like taking out an ad in a Sunday newspaper so that applicants can apply and other nonsense. All while the employee is already working for the company on a visa. The whole thing is farcical.

[selimthegrim]

> PERM has charming and quaint requirements like taking out an ad in a Sunday newspaper so that applicants can apply and other nonsense.

Well, that certainly explains why I saw Lucid advertising in a New Orleans free newspaper and applied and got nothing but a rejection.

[jonathankoren]

> it's a mostly pointless bureaucratic exercise in bogus paperwork where lawyers and the gov. make bank

I love how people always think that The Government™ does things to make money, rather some congressman from the Bible Belt just engaging in straight up xenophobia.

[bubblethink]

I mean the outcome is that it's a lot of wasted time and money. The original motivation for these policies was a pro-labor/protectionist stance in hiring immigrants, but that is completely subverted because there are no restrictions in hiring temp. immigrant workers. This PERM thing only comes up if you want to keep them permanently. The process basically subverts everyone's expectations, disappoints everyone, and just hands gov. and lawyers money.

[tomohelix]

I see it as arbitrary barriers to immigration to satisfy those who don't want to see foreigners in the US. The fact it was corrupted to become a money-making business is just a natural result of any archaic laws in the US. It is rather the norm that lawyers and politicians make a dumb law to get attention, then later on they refuse to change it because it is profitable to keep it that way. If it wasn't profitable, they would change it to get political points already.

[philwelch]

Let me know as soon as any state outside the Bible Belt elects a governor of Indian descent, okay? Meanwhile, please don’t complain about “xenophobia” while simultaneously making extremely ignorant and offensive generalizations about specific parts of the world.

[giobox]

> there is a distinction that probably escapes most native citizens here: they are talking about EB2 visa, not H1B.

> Often, it requires an advance degree and higher qualification than H1B too, PhDs or experienced masters.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but the PERM process applies when H1B holders seek to gain permanent residency too - at least that's been my experience. It also applies to the L1 etc:

https://www.lawfirm4immigrants.com/h-1b-green-card-transitio...

PERM certification is required to get a GC on an H1B (it's not needed to get an H1B, just required when the H1B holder seeks to get permanent residency).

There's another side to this story that the media reporting almost never mentions on this; many in the PERM process have lived in the USA for a long time and established families, children, communities etc. To deny them during PERM literally means in many cases to ship them and their American children "home" to a country they may not have seen for 20 years. In some cases the American kids won't even be able to speak the main language of their parent's birth country.

The solution as always is pretty simple - we need to divorce immigration status from employment - the processes should not be linked. This would at a stroke remove incentives for less scrupulous employers to abuse the system too.

[tomohelix]

But then you would have issues with how to evaluate the immigrant. You may say degree, work history, other achievements, etc but those are already being used as qualifiers in the current system, in addition to the job requirements. So any attempts at decoupling immigration from employment would be seen as "open border" by many politicians and their bases, i.e. not going to be a reality ever.

If even a law trying to let US-educated PhDs getting an H1B easier (just to work, not GC) get blocked, you know how anti-immigration the current political climate is.

[sgjohnson]

> or a decade if you were born in the wrong place...

That's being generous. I'm pretty sure that for people born in India the backlog is well over 100 years. The reason being that only 7500 green cards per year can be issued to people of any particular nationality. If there are 750k Indians with approved GC applications under employment category, that's a 100 year backlog. I'm sure there's a statistic somewhere, and I remember reading an article a couple of years back that claimed that this particular backlog has surpassed 90 years, so it's not unthinkable that today it's over 100.

EB2 final action date for Indian nationals is currently at 01JAN12. Which means that USCIS is currently processing applications from almost 12 years ago. Which means they have to wait a decade before their application even gets approved.

There are people that will quite literally never see an EB2 or EB3 green card in their lives despite having an approved application. The only viable path to a green card for those is marrying a US citizen, period. (as that category has no cap or quota whatsoever)

[pandaman]

EB2 requirements: BS or equivalent + 5 years of progressive experience. Or, alternatively, a very light version of EB-1 "exceptional ability" checklist. The fees are couple grand and the major expense is in interviewing and rejecting enough candidates to justify the need. You seem to be confusing it with EB-1.

While it's true these people already work there etc. etc. EB2, just like EB3, requires the DOL certification that "there are not sufficient U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to accept the job opportunity in the area of intended employment". [1]

This sucks for firms like Apple because there are quite enough U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to take a whole bunch of jobs that are being held by a BS with 5 years of experience... Imagine you are an officer of the U.S. government and a lawyer from Apple sends you an application for a, for example, front end developer. Will you honestly believe that there are literally no U.S. workers able, willing, qualified and available to take such a job? At Apple no less. It's not "some folks won't take a job at Apple/FB/Google/etc for political reasons, so there!". It's literally a claim that there are no US citizens or LPRs who could do that job. How credible you'd think such a claim is?

1. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/foreign-labor/programs/perm...

[sgjohnson]

> It's literally a claim that there are no US citizens or LPRs who could do that job. How credible you'd think such a claim is?

Very credible, because people already employed don’t really count. It doesn’t matter at what company.

Imagine someone leaves whatever company they are at to take the role at Apple. Now the company the employee left has an opening that can’t be filled.

And that’s how it works. Otherwise there would be no need for immigration in this sector at all.

[pandaman]

>Very credible, because people already employed don’t really count. It doesn’t matter at what company.

Why don't they count? Already employed people are recruited by Apple, I get spammed by Apple recruiters, I know a dozen of people who had been poached by Apple from various companies. Apple does hire people who are already employed, they pay quite a bit more so many employed people are looking if not for increased prestige then for increased TC.

>Imagine someone leaves whatever company they are at to take the role at Apple. Now the company the employee left has an opening that can’t be filled.

I am not sure I follow, this is obviously false on its face. Why exactly can not it be filled?

[sgjohnson]

> Why exactly can not it be filled?

Because eventually you’ll run out of people that can be hired.

Unless you’re making an argument that there are more software developers than job openings in the US, which is patently false.

And more importantly, this case is more about people who were already employed at Apple, on a non-immigrant visa, that Apple wished to retain permanently. I see no actual wrongdoing here. A tried and tested employee is ALWAYS better than an unknown one.

[pandaman]

>Because eventually you’ll run out of people that can be hired.

I am not sure I am following again. Have you worked anywhere at all or know anybody who worked somewhere? Ask them, the positions get filled, nobody runs out of people, and Apple is doubly so.

>Unless you’re making an argument that there are more software developers than job openings in the US, which is patently false.

No, I am making argument that there are able, qualified and willing US software developers, or any other professionals, available to take any job at Apple.

[coliveira]

There is a reason companies pay for this process: they are allowed to maintain the worker for as long as the process goes. And for many people this can take up to 10 years, depending on nationality. If they have a good employee, it is a no-brainer to pay so they cannot leave the company, under the penalty of having the green card process cancelled or restarted.

[jogjayr]

The applicant keeps their position in the green card line even if they restart the process with a different company. If it will take 10 years at the current company, it will also take 10 years at the next one if they leave right now.

So it does not help retention in the way you believe.

It is beneficial for retention because companies who don't apply for green cards for employees will lose them to firms that apply.

[liquidpele]

> If they have a good employee

I think you mean cheaper employee.

[jrockway]

I really don't think Big Tech is using H1-B and greencards to buy fake loyalty or cheaper labor. If your current employer applied for a visa for you, your future employer will too. (To some extent, startups get screwed here, since nobody on an H1-B is going to ditch Apple to work at your startup.) H1-B salaries are public information; and they are exactly the same as what everyone else puts on levels.fyi. I worked at Google; I saw the mandatory H1-B job postings and there was no difference in comp or requirements between my role and the ones being advertised. Filling out paperwork so that every qualified candidate in the world can work there is the cost of doing business; if there were more qualified applicants, they'd hire more people. To the visaholders, this is just another perk for working at a big tech company.

When I clicked the link, I thought this article was going to be something like "non-US citizens get an extra $10k in perks because these companies do all their visa work for them, and US citizens don't need a visa". But it's something much more obscure that doesn't matter.

[injb]

Right but the argument (the good one) isn't that they're paid less - it's that you're paid less because they are available. If US employers couldn't import workers they'd have to pay you more.

[jrockway]

I don't really believe it. The companies would just offshore to a country with more preferential immigration treatment. Remember that plan for a boat in international waters where programmers who can't get visas would work for companies in San Francisco with the same time zone? That's what limiting immigration would accomplish. Immigration has maybe one effect, increasing the tax base.

[cool_dude85]

If it's so easy to offshore these jobs, why hasn't Apple done it yet and quit fooling around with this whole onerous visa process? Out of the good of their heart?

[theGnuMe]

Legally there cannot be comp differences. The issue is once you get the H1B you have them for 7+ years. Obviously they can change companies but it is not without risk.

[deaddodo]

PERM certification is the closest to corporate brain drain that exists. On top of that, people overlook the O1 visa. Both of these are visas that the regular person just can't compete with. They're for individuals the US wants to drain from another country (and are extraordinarily capable of it) and are given to individuals of high accomplishment.

If you're afraid of foreign competition, you should be worried about H1B and similar visas (visas for foreigners willing to slot into a normal "skilled" position), which this article isn't touching on at all. Those are the visas of your peers that companies are willing to hire extranationally.

[thaumasiotes]

> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American

Wage depression is a function of being willing and able to work in the field, not of residency type.

Residency type can only depress individual wages for the person with the odd residency.

[x86x87]

there is no such thing as an EB2 visa. EB2 is a category for Green Card.

PERM is one stage in the Green Card process. (it goes: PERM -> I140 -> I485. https://maggio-kattar.com/three-stages-employer-sponsored-pe...)

https://www.uscis.gov/green-card/green-card-eligibility/gree...

[sgjohnson]

Technically speaking, a green card is still a visa.

[x86x87]

Yes, but no. A green card allows you to stay in the US permanently. The only major differences between a green card holder and a citizen are the right to vote and the ability to hold public office.

[sgjohnson]

Yeah, I know that. I was only arguing semantics. :)

[goodluckchuck]

Doesn’t that make it worse? That they’ll pursue a far more difficult and costly approach rather than, idk, just try to hire the best candidate for the role?

[Lamad1234]

Immigration is brutal and absurd!! One can waste their whole life waiting for a piece of paper!!!

[standardUser]

> No such thing as wage depression or abuse at this point

You're saying that Apple can't find people from less-developed countries with these specific credentials and then offer them a starting salary that's $100k under what they would have needed to offer to someone from California?

> because they are for all legal purposes, an equal to any American once they have EB2.

Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay.

[NovemberWhiskey]

>Equal to an American in legal rights perhaps, but there is no right to competitive pay.

The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility - the bar to hire an H-1B is much higher than to hire a US native worker. Once you have an EB-2 (an immigrant visa, that entitles you to a Green Card), that no longer applies - modulo national-security type positions that require citizenship you're just as hirable as a US native.

[liquidpele]

> The theoretical factor that's supposed to depress pay for workers on non-immigrant visas is that they don't have easy job mobility

There’s more to it than that, but that’s one of the big ones. Have you worked with foreign contractors/outsourcing before? If so you know why jumping to another job would be difficult.

[mbs159]

> native citizens

I hope that by this you mean Native Americans. Or are colonizers now considered native citizens?

[throwawa14223]

Native means belonging to a place by birth, as to distinguish from citizens not born here. Colonizer is dehumanizing language.