[seee-I-Told-you]

Unions are a good thing, definately right now when the competition from "slave owners" in eastern Europe, China etc will exploit workers and outrun competition that way.

For Tesla, with China's export of electric vehicle it would be a good thing to "set the bar" and prevent low cost workers from entering the market - hence securing Tesla's position in Sweden.

And that's what the "Swedish model" of working is all about, Unions "set the lower bar" for what is acceptable and what is not.

[irusensei]

Good unions are a good thing you mean?

I've lived in Brazil and over there most unions are disgraceful corrupt and nepotist institutions. Their directors are filthy rich from a time every worker was forced to pay a day of his wages every year. Opting out was as convenient and hard you can imagine and most agreements were corrupt dealings in closed doors with no regard to the interest of workers.

The one union I was forced to participate had its director caught accepting bribery and hiring his own family for director roles, whom in turn were lavished in gifts from companies like imported luxury vehicles.

The obligatory association law was abolished a few years ago but these unions are still trying to lobby government to provide an alternative to. A few months ago the Supreme Court came to an understanding it was okay to bring back the tax with opt out system under a different name.

[Propelloni]

Imagine European unions would export their "lower bars" by helping workers in other countries unionize. That would give globalisation a whole new meaning.

[VoxPelli]

International solidarity between unions is a natural part of being a union

(Well, unless when you want to protect jobs from moving abroad, then the solidarity is gone. Eg. the German unions are great at ensuring that any job cuts happens in other European countries instead of in Germany)

[aborsy]

Not necessarily. They protect exploitation of the some of the workers, but often bring about abuse and host of other problems.

[lawn]

Please remember that unions in Sweden aren't the same as unions in the US.

[rvnx]

I understand the feeling of Aborsy; in another European country (France) Unions are a non-elected political force that seizes power by force in a factory / company.

Once they have established their power, they do anything they can to impose their law on other workers and collect money from both the owners, and the other employees.

And to be considered part of the group, you have to pay an annual membership to them in order to get “protected”.

[eddtries]

I pay a couple dollars a year in Sweden and my union offers unemployment insurance, 80% of my salary for six months if I’m laid off. I’m okay with that annual membership if that was all I got :)

[aborsy]

You gain in those items and may lose in others. It probably depends on how the unions are set up.

For example, my work environment in France was so toxic that over time I developed psychological problems, because the institution could not address the abuse, harassment, bullying, etc, since everyone had secure permanent contracts protected by unions.

[hef19898]

On top of government unemployment benefits? That is incredibly generous!

[Gud]

Although this is often administered by a union, you don't have to be a union member to be a part of an A-kassa. Essentially, it's an unemployment insurance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment_funds_in_Sweden

[eddtries]

Actually I don’t know if they’re on top of or a total replacement, but even as a replacement I’m happy! I work as a consultant so it’s always a little risky finding clients, but my annual take home from the previous year covers the downtime

And honestly I’d argue this fairly liberal approach encourages entrepreneurship because you have so many safety nets

[dagw]

No, it make sure your total unemployment benefits is 80% of what your salary used to be.

[aborsy]

Indeed, I was speaking of the notorious French unions! I have written several long comments in HN on their ills.

[edgyquant]

Can you explain how they differ?

[avgcorrection]

Okay. “Abuse” and “other problems”. I’m convinced already.

[atoav]

Any source for "abuse and a host of other problems" brought about by swedish unions, or is this just a gut feeling by yours truly?

Even of I look at the most problematic union conduct I can recall of the top of my head it is absolutely dwarfed by any potential abuse coming from corporations which unarguably is many magnitudes more problematic. And this includes armed rebellions against company armies.

It is a bit like pointing to a few cases were ambulances produced traffic accidents and demand that they can't be trusted for that reason. Maybe it's my physics interest, but if this was a formula I would say we can ignore the union downsides because they are insignificant.

Unions over all have shown to be helping raise the standards for even those who are not in them and there is enough sociological research to back that conclusively. Systemically, if corporations would share their success with their employees instead of trying to maximize the extracted value. So the flavour of unions you will get has to do with the society you are in.

In an era where corporate sends Pinkerton thugs to beat up people unions will jive very differently than in a social democratic nation in Scandinavia in the 2020s. Heck, I would even say that in the rugged-individualism-embarassed-billionaire-land that the US is, unions would take on a different shape than in any neighbouring country just based on cultural differences. So a bit more nuance and a look at things at scale is certainly needed.

[beepbooptheory]

What do you think we should conclude from this? Is abuse more intrinsic to unions than it is to employers? What are the other problems?

If the doctor tells you that you need antibiotics to survive your infection, do you dwell on all the possible side effects, or do you just want to not die?

If this is not just being pendantic, it seems to imply that having no unions are better than having unions. Is that actually what you want to argue here? If not, what are you trying to contribute?

[guilamu]

Any kind of reference, please and thank you, to corroborate those affirmations?