[enterprise_cog]

If you read the Wikipedia it specifically says that there is no evidence. The human shield claim is so the IOF can bomb civilian areas with no responsibility for their deaths.

Also, as for your story, I don’t believe them. More likely that soldier killed civilians knowingly and then made up the story after.

[dvfjsdhgfv]

> If you read the Wikipedia it specifically says that there is no evidence.

There is a lot of it, but of course you can say it's all fabricated, e.g. these examples: https://web.archive.org/web/20111018011032/http://www.mfa.go...

However, the gist of "lack of evidence" is found in this quote:

> The United Nations Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict ("UNFFMG") that took place in 2008–2009 accepted the possibility that Hamas launched mortar attacks from the vicinity of a school and from residential homes, sometimes by the threat of force against residents. The report was unable to find specific evidence that civilians whose homes were used for rocket launches were "forced to remain in their houses" but the report repeatedly noted that Gaza residents were "reluctant" to discuss the conduct of Palestinian armed forces due to fear of reprisals.

So yes, if you are going to look for Palestinians who will testify in court that the were forced to remain in a given place or enable to escape for some time, you will never find such a person.

[enterprise_cog]

You’re right, I refuse to blindly believe anything put out by Israel and need hard evidence. Hearsay is not that.

Funny you mention that report though, it also states that Israel intentionally targeted civilians.

Goldstone also said the evidence presented did not meet "the criminal standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt".

[invalidname]

There's a lot of evidence but here's the son of the head of Hamas providing some: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8YYmrgAeqw

[enterprise_cog]

An Israeli collaborator who worked as an undercover spy is repeating Israeli propaganda. That isn’t evidence.

[invalidname]

Sure. You can always discount the multiple sources of evidence that you're given. You can ignore the well published beliefs of the Hamas which specifically state that "innocent Muslims" killed in the Jihad are rewarded in the afterlife.

You can ignore all of those things. You can ignore the fact that they placed their headquarters under a hospital or that they fire rockets next to another hospital (and hit it by mistake then blamed Israel).

Just as long as it fits the narrative of Israel is lying and the Hamas is, truthful???

What level of evidence do you need? There's motive, there's justification, there's first person testimony... What do you think, that the people who send suicide bombers into busses with children are too nice???

Confirmation bias is a problematic thing. For instance, I don't want to believe that the Hamas is truthful about the number of deaths in Gaza. But I don't KNOW that they are lying. I have no source of that other than their history. It's also very clear that they don't divide combatants from civilians which is the number I want to know. But the difference is my belief doesn't factor into this. I just don't know. That isn't evidence either.

In this case the evidence is pretty damn clear.

[enterprise_cog]

All the sources just happen to be Israeli. Weird.

You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions. Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.

You repeat the lie that the rocket hit the hospital (no evidence of this and the evidence points to an Israeli bomb or shell) You also repeat the lie that there is a base under the hospital.

You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.

What motive and justification are you even talking about? Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway? You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies? Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?

Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?

Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?

But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.

[dvfjsdhgfv]

But there is no need to repeat any propaganda. It's enough to look at their actions: they attacked innocent girsl dancing peacefully during a music festival and killed them (I just hope it was the only thing they did). Nobody is questioning that. It has nothing to do with propaganda, it's reality.

[invalidname]

> All the sources just happen to be Israeli. Weird.

Mosab Hassan Yousef is very much not an Israeli. He has family still in Gaza which might not talk to him but he still loves them (my spouse knows him personally).

Here's a PDF from Nato: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields....

> You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions.

Their intentions are clear from their documents. They are clear from their actions. I saw the busses they blew up, I spoke to people who were hiding in a safe room while half their peaceful village was wiped out. These are people who would fly kites with Gazan's to promote peaceful co-existence. Not settlers.

Israel has free media. A lot of the bad stuff you hear about Israels action comes from Israeli media and Israelis. There is propaganda, but with free press it's very hard to keep it going.

> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.

Let's start by saying that the current government is awful and terrible. Not as bad as the Hamas but definitely should be in jail. They got elected due to a broken electoral system and Benjamin Netanyahu's manipulation of the political system to get away from his criminal trials.

> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.

I didn't hear Likud members specifically say "Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth" but I did hear coalition members say that and they are indeed abhorrent and despicable. Fortunately, the army is an independent branch. It obeys the law and international law. Soldiers know they are liable, although indeed there are some terrible cases where they stray, but there are good cases where they are caught.

I'm not saying Israel is the "good guy" here. It's a bad situation. But the Hamas is by far more terrible to all sides. It is currently a choice, either the Hamas or Israel. By the Hamas's own words, they will do this again: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6

Israel literally has no choice here. I hope this war will also result in the collapse of the Likud government and maybe a second chance for peace without the interference of Netanyahu or the Hamas.

> You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.

Fair. I do start from that point. I don't think I blindly believe them though. The evidence of the Hamas murdering civilians is pretty evidence by the three busses blown up on the street where I used to live in the 90s... Or the bartender I knew who was burned to an inch of death in a cafe explosion. These aren't good people.

OTOH I spent a lot of time with Palestinians who are great people. Moderate, peaceful people. I know them and I know they are not the Hamas. They are its victims.

> Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway?

Israel tries not to kill them so it actually works. See the hospital case. Israel knows that the headquarters are there and yet, not a single bomb.

But when Israel still hits even one of them, then it makes sense to infuriate and raise more terrorists. To reduce the legitimacy of Israel and the victim goes to heaven... It's a win for them regardless of what Israel does.

> You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies?

I suggest googling martyrdom and the Muslim Brotherhood which was the source of the Hamas. Their extremist religious belief is that any Muslim who dies as part of the Jihad is a Martyr. Goes instantly to heaven. They even make memes over that, claiming that death isn't the end for them. That's how they get people to blow themselves up.

It's an insane religious interpretation of Islam, you can read about it here (PDF): https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/03...

> Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?

Let's check that claim... Israel very much has the power to kill everyone. Yet despite throwing thousands of tons of bombs, casualties are still around 8,000 and that's based on the inflated Hamas numbers (and I would argue that the vast majority are Hamas terrorists).

Israel specifically targeted areas with low population, it tracked phone signals and only bombed areas that had low civilian activity. Does that sound like a country trying to conduct genocide?

Notice, I'm not saying Israel is good or perfect. I'm not saying it is free of racism or discrimination. But it does have rule of law and is subject to international oversight, an investigator from the Hauge court is in Israel right now inspecting the actions taken by the army. They need to have the ability to explain every single one of those thousands of bombs. They will need to connect all the action to concrete intelligence.

> Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?

The UN hasn't confirmed any number. They don't know because all of the people are there and afraid for their lives from the Hamas. The numbers include both civilian and Hamas deaths as a single number.

> Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?

Very few. The posts that were attacked had minimal personnel. The Nova party that was attacked was the main source of victims. The village where our friends lived had 450 people. Around 200 survived, luckily them included by the husbands ridiculous bravery.

> But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.

Sure. I have a side. But I'm a super lefty liberal so I hate the Israeli government and do believe the Palestinians deserve a country. I have Palestinian friends and my heart goes out to them. You're assuming that I implicitly pick Israels side but the opposite is true, it burns me to have to support any army action, especially with the SOB Netanyahu still in charge. I don't trust him at all...

That's the thing, I have doubts but not about how evil the Hamas is... That's proven.

[pxc]

> Israel has free media.

Independent, maybe, but not really free, when all press is subject to the Israeli Military Censor.