| HN Mirror

> All the sources just happen to be Israeli. Weird.

Mosab Hassan Yousef is very much not an Israeli. He has family still in Gaza which might not talk to him but he still loves them (my spouse knows him personally).

Here's a PDF from Nato: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields....

> You repeat Israeli and us propaganda about Hamas intentions.

Their intentions are clear from their documents. They are clear from their actions. I saw the busses they blew up, I spoke to people who were hiding in a safe room while half their peaceful village was wiped out. These are people who would fly kites with Gazan's to promote peaceful co-existence. Not settlers.

Israel has free media. A lot of the bad stuff you hear about Israels action comes from Israeli media and Israelis. There is propaganda, but with free press it's very hard to keep it going.

> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.

Let's start by saying that the current government is awful and terrible. Not as bad as the Hamas but definitely should be in jail. They got elected due to a broken electoral system and Benjamin Netanyahu's manipulation of the political system to get away from his criminal trials.

> Should I quote Likud members saying Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth? Sounds like concrete evidence they are killing civilians on purpose.

I didn't hear Likud members specifically say "Palestinians need to be wiped from the earth" but I did hear coalition members say that and they are indeed abhorrent and despicable. Fortunately, the army is an independent branch. It obeys the law and international law. Soldiers know they are liable, although indeed there are some terrible cases where they stray, but there are good cases where they are caught.

I'm not saying Israel is the "good guy" here. It's a bad situation. But the Hamas is by far more terrible to all sides. It is currently a choice, either the Hamas or Israel. By the Hamas's own words, they will do this again: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6

Israel literally has no choice here. I hope this war will also result in the collapse of the Likud government and maybe a second chance for peace without the interference of Netanyahu or the Hamas.

> You are starting from the assumption Israel is good and Hamas is bad, then working backwards to justify that. You blindly believe US and Israeli governments, when they have lied and continue to lie to the public.

Fair. I do start from that point. I don't think I blindly believe them though. The evidence of the Hamas murdering civilians is pretty evidence by the three busses blown up on the street where I used to live in the 90s... Or the bartender I knew who was burned to an inch of death in a cafe explosion. These aren't good people.

OTOH I spent a lot of time with Palestinians who are great people. Moderate, peaceful people. I know them and I know they are not the Hamas. They are its victims.

> Why would they even keep using human shields if they know Israel is just going to kill them anyway?

Israel tries not to kill them so it actually works. See the hospital case. Israel knows that the headquarters are there and yet, not a single bomb.

But when Israel still hits even one of them, then it makes sense to infuriate and raise more terrorists. To reduce the legitimacy of Israel and the victim goes to heaven... It's a win for them regardless of what Israel does.

> You think Hamas wants their own people to die for funsies?

I suggest googling martyrdom and the Muslim Brotherhood which was the source of the Hamas. Their extremist religious belief is that any Muslim who dies as part of the Jihad is a Martyr. Goes instantly to heaven. They even make memes over that, claiming that death isn't the end for them. That's how they get people to blow themselves up.

It's an insane religious interpretation of Islam, you can read about it here (PDF): https://securitypolicylaw.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/03...

> Or maybe it’s that Israel is a genocidal state that needs to justify globally why it’s massacring civilians?

Let's check that claim... Israel very much has the power to kill everyone. Yet despite throwing thousands of tons of bombs, casualties are still around 8,000 and that's based on the inflated Hamas numbers (and I would argue that the vast majority are Hamas terrorists).

Israel specifically targeted areas with low population, it tracked phone signals and only bombed areas that had low civilian activity. Does that sound like a country trying to conduct genocide?

Notice, I'm not saying Israel is good or perfect. I'm not saying it is free of racism or discrimination. But it does have rule of law and is subject to international oversight, an investigator from the Hauge court is in Israel right now inspecting the actions taken by the army. They need to have the ability to explain every single one of those thousands of bombs. They will need to connect all the action to concrete intelligence.

> Also amusing you post that you can’t know about the civilian deaths. The UN and other human rights groups have confirmed the numbers and said they are probably a low estimate. How is that not evidence for you?

The UN hasn't confirmed any number. They don't know because all of the people are there and afraid for their lives from the Hamas. The numbers include both civilian and Hamas deaths as a single number.

> Divide civilians from combatants? How many of the 1400 Israelis killed on the 7th were IDF btw?

Very few. The posts that were attacked had minimal personnel. The Nova party that was attacked was the main source of victims. The village where our friends lived had 450 people. Around 200 survived, luckily them included by the husbands ridiculous bravery.

> But yeah, you’re right about confirmation bias being a thing.

Sure. I have a side. But I'm a super lefty liberal so I hate the Israeli government and do believe the Palestinians deserve a country. I have Palestinian friends and my heart goes out to them. You're assuming that I implicitly pick Israels side but the opposite is true, it burns me to have to support any army action, especially with the SOB Netanyahu still in charge. I don't trust him at all...

That's the thing, I have doubts but not about how evil the Hamas is... That's proven.