[nat0704]

Yeah, the good ol' "I don't agree with the facts, so they must be damn lies" defense.

Look, I used to be as Pro-Israeli as they come. I fully endorse the right of any nation to defend itself when attacked by terrorists ( and yes Hamas is a terrorist group on par with Al-Qaeda).

But it's one thing to act against terrorists, and it's another thing entirely to indiscriminately kill children for crying out loud. Children!

I supported Israel, but I have a conscience, as do the vast majority of human beings. At this point, there's no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel.

In the refugee camp that was bombed, children were trying to drag the corpses of other children they had been playing with together in a playground. That's heartbreaking, it's horrifying.

And to respond to your 'fake statistics' claim, the UN and Aid Agencies have repeatedly certified that the death numbers released are accurate, with some insisting they're actually undercounts, which means even more innocent people have been killed by the Israeli Government's indiscriminate bombing than has been reported.

[stareatgoats]

Your comment was dead, so I vouched for it. I don't agree with all of it, you say for example that there is "no difference between Hamas and the Govt of Israel" (which is a common way off putting things, but there is always a difference between two discernible things). You could have phrased that better in order to keep a civil tone IMO. But Israel is definitely stepping across a line here, this response is not "proportionate" as required by the Geneva convention, which I think is the gist of the comment.

[nat0704]

Thanks. I got a bit overheated there I guess.

I usually just lurk on HN without commenting. But it's just that it was difficult to read someone actually defending & rationalising the intentional murder of children. I mean I had to say something.

Even if it's only online, one does have to speak up.

Keeping quiet and going about one's life, while atrocities are being committed (even if they're being committed by the Govt of a country one previously had some admiration for), makes one a silent accomplice to those commiting the said atrocities.

[philwelch]

> But Israel is definitely stepping across a line here, this response is not "proportionate" as required by the Geneva convention

This is not actually how the Geneva Conventions work. In particular, the Geneva Conventions do not allow a belligerent to intentionally use human shields in order to turn a legitimate military target into an illegal target. Furthermore, the so called rule of "proportionality" does not actually use the term "proportionate". Instead, the criteria is whether the "expected" civilian casualties are "excessive" "in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated". There's a good thread here breaking this down: https://twitter.com/Aizenberg55/status/1719729794043052234

[stareatgoats]

> the Geneva Conventions do not allow a belligerent to intentionally use human shields

The proportionality rule ultimately requires a judgement call, like the thread you provided states. I understand that your call might be different than mine, but to me the evidence is clear: Israel is not paying appropriate heed to Article 57 §1: "In the conduct of military operations, constant care shall be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects."

You seem to think the massive toll on civilians and civilian objects (houses) is merely because Hamas is using them as shields, to me this tactic of Hamas' is now mainly an excuse used by IDF to terrorize to the point of obliteration a perceived hateful albeit civilian population, a strategy that has strong support in Israel after Hamas heinous attacks on October 7.

We can debate the finer points of this ad nauseam, but that would be missing the greater picture, which is that the Israeli army is now doing exactly what Hamas expected them to do. What we need now is to tell the Israelis to stop and reconsider, not provide them with further excuses for genocidal policies. The current trajectory is not in Israel's long term interests, nor those of the region or indeed the world.

[philwelch]

There’s no evidence that Israel is targeting the civilian population of Gaza. If they were, they wouldn’t have warned them to evacuate south of the Wadi over a week ago.

Hamas routinely places military targets such as rocket launch sites, headquarters, and weapons productions centers directly alongside and underneath civilian population centers. They do this to manipulate gullible people like you and they are succeeding. Israel is right not to care about such foolish opinions when Hamas has vowed to repeat the massacres of October 7 repeatedly as long as they exist. They are not the ones pursuing a genocidal policy.

[stareatgoats]

> gullible people like you

> foolish opinions

I understand. Instead of civil discourse you prefer to have ad hominem laden discussions about your insults and strawmen? A tactic commonly used in lieu of sound arguments as you may be aware. But granted, this issue is "too close to home" for some people, a level-headed discussion can be too much to ask for.

I guess we're done here. Have a nice day.

[philwelch]

You’re the one throwing around words like “genocide” and you’re going to complain and ignore my perfectly sound arguments because I said “gullible” and “foolish”? Give me a break. It’s a fact that Hamas deliberately uses human shields by placing their headquarters, rocket launch sites, and weapons productions facilities around and underneath civilian population centers. It’s also a fact that it’s these facilities, not the civilian population, that Israel has consistently targeted. You can’t address these facts so you get upset that I’m characterizing your opinions as “foolish”.