[dwc]

There's a sad undercurrent to this, as some redditors respond that they find this depressing. While I understand their plight, I do not understand the sustained pessimism for most of the depressed ones.

I went to work right out of high school at menial jobs. No college, no big family business. Paycheck-to-paycheck, and any minor emergency like a dead car battery was a financial crisis. I did not "get lucky" on stocks or anything. While getting rich has not been a focus for me, I decided I definitely did NOT like being poor. Lots of small steps, and staying on the lookout for ways to improve matters has led me to not be poor. I'm not rich but I'm in decent shape and moving in the right direction: no debt except the mortage, which will be payed off soonish; some money in savings, stocks, 401k, etc. I'm living at a decent level and should be able to retire in some comfort. No magic. No big windfalls. This is doable by most of those depressed people.

[stevear]

I am really glad someone else has noticed this and feels the same way.

This quote from that thread pissed me off all morning: "If you told the common man any time in history other than the baby boomer generation, that the way to get rich was 'hard work' and 'Budgeting' they would die of laughter."

Every day I feel more and more alienated by the victim mentality on Reddit. It seems to be the only tangible by-product of the Occupy Wall Street protests.

I don't even know why I visit Reddit anymore.

[tzs]

Why are you pissed off? That quote seems basically accurate, although we can quibble about how far back we have to go for it it apply and what exactly qualifies as the "common man".

Through much of history, hard work and budgeting where not the road to riches--they were the road to not starving or, in good times, to being reasonably well off. The path to being rich was often blocked by ethnic background, religious background, or social class.

Yes, some people were able to break through those barriers, but that usually took more than just hard work and budgeting. They needed luck or brilliance.

[kylebrown]

I'm not sure why you would find that quote so offensive, but to be fair, the disillusioned youth on Reddit are probably just as sensitive to the "anyone can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps" assertions by smug boomers (like the GP). Such a world-view is increasingly at odds with an economic reality in which income inequality is higher than its been in decades, and growing.

[astine]

High income inequality is not at odds with the ability for folks lift themselves out of poverty or social mobility in general.

[alex_c]

It may not be inherently at odds, no, but I haven't seen any evidence or studies that social mobility is in any way increasing - and it does seem counter-intuitive that social mobility could increase at the same time as income inequality.

http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

"How rising inequality affects social mobility is still unclear. Those born since inequality started to rise sharply are only just now becoming adults. However there are some troubling signs according to two papers to be presented at the Tobin Project, an alliance of scholars, this month. Christopher Jencks of Harvard University finds that income inequality has been accompanied by a widening gap in college attendance. Ms Sawhill argues that a rising correlation between income levels, likelihood of marriage and level of education will make society more stagnant."

[paulhauggis]

"It may not be inherently at odds, no, but I haven't seen any evidence or studies that social mobility is in any way increasing - and it does seem counter-intuitive that social mobility could increase at the same time as income inequality."

The Internet has given many more people opportunities..if they choose to take it. There is so much free information out there..there's no reason why more people aren't able to pick up a new skill and bring themselves out of poverty.

If you don't have the Internet, pretty much every city in the US has free access at a library.

[nitrogen]

There's more to social mobility than just skill, however. As a hypothetical example, if a currently poor person who is genetically/psychologically predisposed to shyness and introversion learns a new skill, they'll still have the difficulty of forming the social connections necessary to know how to apply that skill toward generating life-altering levels of income.

[pessimizer]

But high income inequality and low social mobility (low social mobility isn't particularly in question) together as facts are at odds with a significant likelihood of folks to lift themselves out of poverty. Proving the "ability" is an existence proof about the future probability of anyone in the class escaping poverty being nonzero, and sets a very low bar for what is acceptable for society, in my opinion.

[ryguytilidie]

Yeah I don't know how a country full of people who have been conned by their government over and over again could feel like victims...

[marshallp]

That's not "rich". That's called working for the man. It is depressing because of the jobs out there are bullshit jobs. No one needs to be stacking shelves at walmart or the gap - people can click on amazon.

If you take a real look around much of the economy is this b.s. burger flipping and shelf stacking, and much of the rest are the welfare queens otherwise known as government employees and corporate managers. There is such an epic wastage of the world's human resources that anyone in the know would cry themselves to sleep. Occupy Wall Street is nothing in comparison to the scale of the problem.

[nitrogen]

Though your post was probably downvoted for its unrealistic pessimism, I have to agree with the idea that much of humanity's labor is wasted. The question remains, however, what do people do with their time, and how do they feed themselves, when their labor is entirely replaced by machines?

[tayl0r]

That is the zillion dollar question right there. We're facing it now and it's only going to get worse.

The economic system we have in place now seems like it breaks down when a portion of your population cannot join the workforce in any sort of useful fashion.

I don't think you can solve this problem with the current ideologies of the common American. It goes against the "core values" of many Americans so any attempt to change the system will be met with much opposition.

[mfieldhouse]

To sum up the average discussion about jobs and money on reddit: a victim mentality and belief that we live in the hardest time ever to get a job because of events outside of our control.

[laaph]

It's easy to get that mentality.

I am in a broke period of my life right now. One can easily tell me about how much it is all my fault, but I thought I had enough money to last for two years when I quit my job, I thought I could find a job within six months in the bay area, people could argue that I am generous to a fault and people I have lent and given money to in the past can't or won't help me out now.

So it is easy to have some depression when scraping together a few bucks for transit to a job interview becomes one of the harder tasks. It's doubly frustrating when you get on the wrong bus and wind up 45 minutes late to the interview.

[johngalt]

If you're inspired by success, chances of emulating it are much higher. If you believe that someone else's success takes something from your own, you will walk through life being depressed by every success story.

[vbtemp]

> I decided I definitely did NOT like being poor

"Money doesn't buy happiness, but having no money can sure buy a lot of misery." On a related note, it really grinds my gears when I hear well-to-do young adults from middle class families say money doesn't matter when they've never struggled to pay rent or for basic medical care.

[zcid]

As someone who struggles for rent and basic medical care, it really grinds my gears listening to someone's victim mentality.

I struggle right now because of my poor decisions. I am improving my lot in life through consistently good choices. Sure, life happens, but ultimately, I am in control of my own destiny.

[alanfalcon]

Sometimes when advanced medical care comes into the picture then people really aren't in control of their financial destiny (and life for them and anyone who shares financial responsibility with them can be truly miserable). But I agree with the broad point!

[jacoblyles]

I blame politics. A lot of young people are emotionally invested in the idea that "the System" is responsible for some people being poor and others being rich. If you acknowledge that some choices are good and others are bad, it challenges the view that wealth is predetermined and that income inequality is caused by fate/bias.

[Klinky]

I don't think blaming it all on good choices/bad choices is any more reasonable than blaming it entirely on "The System". They both play a role in where someone will end up.

[paulhauggis]

"I don't think blaming it all on good choices/bad choices is any more reasonable than blaming it entirely on "The System". They both play a role in where someone will end up"

I suppose. However, the system will never make you rich. Your good choices will. People tend to put too much blame on "The system" and nobody wants to take personal responsibility.

[Klinky]

Again you're using absolutes. Just because someone complains that "The System" is unfair does not mean they are sitting on their butt doing nothing about it or their current situation. Venting is a common trait & for some it is completely justified.

Even making "good choices" your entire life things may still go the wrong way. Sometimes this is life, sometimes this is "The System". Sometimes "bad choices" make you rich as well(drug dealer, ponzi scheme).

[nooneelse]

> "However, the system will never make you rich."

Never? What about inheritance and social/family connections into lucrative jobs and investment opportunities? Those parts of 'the system' seem like they contribute the major part to some people's success and wealth. I suppose one could say something like "well, the person made the good choice to take the inheritance or opportunity on the silver platter before them". But that would seem to make the term "good choices" a bit vacuous, imho, as an account of what a person should do to become rich.

[jacoblyles]

Yep! I completely agree. Making good choices is an (often) necessary but not sufficient condition for success. The rules of the universe are fuzzy and inexact!

But if you spend a lot of time arguing that fate/bias determines a person's life, you are going to be less likely to invest the effort in making those good choices. Optimism and pessimism can infect a culture or an age. Lots more things are possible in ages of cultural optimism, it's self-reinforcing! We're definitely entering an age of pessimism.

[Klinky]

Lots of bad things can happen due to people being overly optimistic. In fact a lot of business blunders have been because people were all smiles while the ship sank. How about the housing crisis? "House prices will always go up!", "I will always make enough to pay off the mortgage I took out", "These securities will make your retirement portfolio/investment firm a lot of money!". You could also point to almost any financial scandal out there and find a bunch of overly optimistic sheep burying their head in the sand or being lead to slaughter. Those sheep who went astray were chastised or booted out.

Pessimism can breed anger and resentment which can eventually lead to changes/revolution. This can be a good or bad thing.

It's a balancing act really, but no one should chuck reality out the window so they can feel overly optimistic or overly pessimistic. That can be a struggle sometimes, depending on your life experiences, the current cultural climate and how much control you feel over your future.