[mgreg]

There’s been some good points raised by both sides in the case but there’s still some logic that doesn’t flow.

* Google pays a rev share to Apple for being _default_ search provided and default was key: “no default, no deal”. Apple turned down more money from Microsoft including offers to buy all/part of Bing. Samsung also dallied with Microsoft for more money but also turned it down.

* This suggests that there’s some other reason aside from money that Apple is going with Google. After all, as Google points out, if competition is just a click away why wouldn’t Apple click away to another partner? This could be:

Google is just better. If Apple switched their users would notice and suffer/leave Apple. There’s additional leverage that Google has that it is leveraging e.g. search ranking penalty? Access to other Google services (especially for Samsung), Agree not to compete in other areas (like their previous no-poach agreement they had).

So a couple of key questions:

1. Is Google really that much better to the _average_ internet user (note that HN crowd is not average in this regard)? Is there much risk to Apple to take the money from Bing and make them default?

2. Somewhat dependent on 1, but ff Google knew/know Apple or others are unlikely to switch because Google is that much better than why not exercise their market power and lower the rev share % they pay to others?

Feels strange for both things to be true - that Google is that much better AND that they don’t negotiate down their rev share.

[0xedd]

You misread. Google paid Apple more. That's why Apple turned Bing sale offer down.

Google search results are horrible! For some time now they bump dummy websites that copycat original work and simply litter the site with ads. Even with these sifted out, their search isn't better. I use some obscure engine and I'm not missing hits.

The days of altavista are long gone. Alternative engines, like qwant, are good.

So, Apple keeping Google as default because they're good? I don't buy it.

[mgreg]

It seems unclear if Microsoft was willing to pay more. From Bloomberg's coverage: "Microsoft business development executive Jon Tinter said that his company weighed making a multibillion-dollar investment in its relationship with Apple in 2016, an effort to outspend Google and make Bing the default option on Apple devices." They also offered to sell part of Bing to Apple it seems.

As to Samsung why else would they consider switching from Google to Bing? According to the WSJ [2] they changed their mind "given concerns over how the switch could be perceived by the market as well as the impact on its wide-ranging business relations with Google." This suggests Microsoft was willing to pay more.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-28/microsoft... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/google-is-spared-a-search-engin...

[elicash]

On (1), everyone in this case, even Microsoft, says yes Google is much better; they just say Google is better for unfair reasons.

On (2), I think what the case said is that Microsoft would have had to pay more because it's smaller? But I'm not as sure here.

[mgreg]

Agreed on 1; people in the court case are saying Google is better.

Given that, why wouldn't Google negotiate a lower rev share?

Consider this from Apple's Eddie Cue: "Cue implied that Bing’s technology was inferior to Google’s, saying that he doesn’t 'know what we would have done” if negotiations with Google ever fell apart.' " [1]

If I were sitting across from Cue at the negotiating table and knew he felt that way I certainly would be looking at a lower rev share and saving some billions of profit for Google...

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-28/microsoft...

[elicash]

Google did negotiate exactly that, a lower rev share than Microsoft would have to pay, according to Microsoft.

Via https://finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-considered-investin...

> Because Bing was far smaller than Google, Microsoft would have had to offer Apple a far larger percentage of the revenue than Google and would have lost money on the deal, at least initially, Tinter said.

[mathteddybear]

Yes, on Desktop users tend to switch to Google. Google could end up benefiting financially from the court ruling these deals illegal. Until the court does so, Apple sells advertising space on their new iPhones in the form of the default search engine choice, and Google offered to pays for this advertisement the most, because they have the biggest gain on such advertisement.