[klabb3]

> but this was an official MS message in notifications so I figured it was worth a look

What infuriates me the most is that this is aimed at nudging those who don’t know better. With older family members, a savvy relative or workshop can help them set up a functional environment, to pay bills, check Facebook etc.

Previously, I’ve advised to ignore messaging from web sites, but official OS notifications are important - like updates. Now, they can update the OS, click next/accept/ok and they end up with a different browser/bookmarks/ui and that be enough to take away their ability to do their errands.

So my mom, for instance, can no longer be self-sufficient. I have to tell her “oh that one is important” or “no this is just Microsoft trying to sell you stuff you don’t need/will be worse”. They’ve tricked her into the Edge default several times, because every update is an opportunity for MS to prey on her with full screen Microsoft-branded marketing posing as security/performance improvements.

[quirino]

For some time I've held the thought that the best operating system for someone not super computer savvy is Linux. Probably Linux Mint.

In the sense that it will stay the same for years and won't break on its own or bother the user with requests of questionable motive.

[tapoxi]

I went through the whole "install Linux on Grandma's old desktop" thing a while ago, totally convinced it was a valid alternative, but there were too many bumps in the road. Linux isn't there yet to allow average users to upgrade major distribution versions. There's been architecture differences (32-bit packages disappearing or no longer being supported), broken packages because it was third-party and not upgraded for the latest release or unsupported, Xorg vs Wayland nonsense, etc. Trying to explain why Zoom doesn't work because it's not requesting a Wayland portal and they need to switch to Xorg but then HiDPI breaks is the type of user experience we're dealing with. That was not fun to debug over a phone during COVID.

Chromebooks are fine, but you need to trust Google. Macs are mostly okay if you're willing to eat the expense, because there's a limited amount of nonsense in the OS and a wide network of Apple Stores for support.

[capitainenemo]

Hm. Personally my mother has been a happy Ubuntu user for over a decade, even going through the installer and upgrades herself.

The only customisation has been to switch to MATE desktop every time, which she finds more familiar. That might also imply sticking with Xorg? Overall though her experience has been good. But perhaps your grandmother uses a wider variety of apps. For her, it's mostly about videos (she does use the ISO automount feature in MATE and CD ripping), some document editing, a web browser, and video conferencing.

The last support call was about plugging in a projector. Turns out the projector was not turned on, and once it was on, it autodetected just fine. I then mentioned mirrored mode and monitor positioning, and that was about it.

Ubuntu is offering 5 years of LTS maintenance on 22.04, and if in 5 years she needs help with the upgrade, I don't feel that's a huge imposition, but she may well manage it on her own just fine.

[mananaysiempre]

> Linux isn't there yet to allow average users to upgrade major distribution versions.

I hate to say it, but ... don’t? Go the full managed-workstation route, put an LTS on there, and hope you’ll have a chance to do a version upgrade sometime in the coming years. I usually dislike the idea of using an LTS on a personal machine, but here, when the person using the computer isn’t the one maintaining it, it feels appropriate.

I agree it should be better, but it doesn’t feel like a grandma problem, it feels like a smart-and-willing-but-not-savvy problem. (Not that grandmas can’t be in the latter category, it just doesn’t sound like that’s what you’re describing.)

[grey_earthling]

> Linux isn't there yet to allow average users to upgrade major distribution versions.

Which distro was this? The major-version-upgrade flow is very different for different distros.

IMO it would be difficult to make upgrading between major versions much easier than Fedora Silverblue — literally 3 clicks. (If you want to try it out, now is a convenient time to install Silverblue 38, because 39 is due out next week.)

[herbst]

Switched all my family to Linux long ago (then Ubuntu, now Fedora) and they even manage to Google their own issues in German.

[anonymous_sorry]

Which distro?

[surgical_fire]

I actually did this experiment.

I had a super old laptop that I installed Ubuntu Mate and gave it to my mom who needed a laptop for simple web browsing/email/YouTube. My mom is totally illiterate when it comes to computers btw.

Worked like a charm for a few years until the laptop finally stopped working for good.

I think Mint would have beem even better. Hell, I use Mint myself. Best OS available by any metrics I can think of. I like it so much that I now donate some yearly 20 bucks to the project. Using it for free feels almost like a steal.

[didgeoridoo]

Same here, installed Ubuntu Mate on six super cheap Windows laptops for a psychology practice. All they needed was Firefox to access webmail and Firefox ESR for their cloud electronic medical records system (yep, using Silverlight in 2020).

I heard not a peep for tech support for years. One time someone thought she forgot her password, but it turned out she just had someone else’s computer.

Eventually the practice made enough money to get everyone on MacBooks, which honestly has given me more trouble (especially around all the system-level permissions for webcam and mic access seemingly resetting on random updates).

Never underestimate how many users just basically need a mobile kiosk instead of an actual computer.

[MisterTea]

My grandmother bought a laptop a while back and decided she instead wanted a tablet. So she gave the laptop to me and I blew out the Win 8 install with Linux Mint and gave it to my mother who still runs it to this day. She has no idea its Linux because the cinnamon DE is Windows-like enough that she has no issue navigating to programs like Firefox. She only browses the web on it so I just setup auto updates and left it alone. She does not use social media, banking, or anything with an account really. She isn't computer savvy so Linux + FF is a low maintenance win.

[anonymous_sorry]

Agreed. I rather like Ubuntu MATE for this purpose.

It can be configured to have a windows-ish layout very simply with their tweak tool.

It kept my parents' old hardware running years past when it would have become unusable and unsupported on Windows.

I just bought them a new cheap Beelink for around £150. More than powerful enough to run MATE for occasional browsing, emails etc.

With tailscale I can ssh in if needed for remote support.

[tambourine_man]

How are the webcam, Bluetooth and audio drivers situation? In a world where Zoom/Meet/Teams are essencial apps, those need to work great all the time.

[yakireev]

Don't take me wrong, but it certainly sounds that your mom needs some Linux in her life. Pick a stable distro, set things up once, leave them be. For basic stuff like web browsing Linux is stable, reliable and won't do any surprises for you.

[klabb3]

She has Ubuntu for a long time and it was really good. I forgot why I left Windows in the new machine, but I think she’s dependent on Zoom at least, maybe a couple of other apps. I may give Ubuntu or Mint another go when I’m visiting next time.

In either case, it’s insane that it’s come to the point where Linux is recommended on the basis of UX for non-savvy people. I wish vendors has these options and support, but people who don’t have a savvy friend or family member will probably never even have a chance to consider it.

[mcv]

Would be nice if malware scanners automatically blocked every attempt to install Edge and other unnecessary Microsoft crap.