[mthomasmw]

It's completely possible to build an EV that isn't connected. The idea that electric power means networked spying is an invented fiction. Due to the privacy-conscious background of one automaker, a vote by the board mandated that all their cars be able to function in a completely disconnected, non-reporting mode:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/porsche-rolls-out-board-approve...

And they all do, even their EV. I voted with my wallet.

[sandworm101]

It is also Porsche, a company that prides itself on long-term support. Just look at the iconic Porsche tractor commercial. They want their car to work as well tomorrow as it does today. They know that communication standards change. Every "connected" car will, in a decade or two, be a disconnected/bricked car.

[kenhwang]

I really like how they're rolling out updated headunits for all their cars right now. Just about every Porsche from the 1960s to late-2000s can be updated to support a modern Porsche infotainment interface as well as CarPlay/Android Auto.

[MrFoof]

Porsche will sell you a new dashboard for your classic 911 that appears visually identical to the original, but is entirely modern in its construction.

Porsche's classic division is really setting the standards for supporting older cars. They realize over time it'll become an increasingly relevant portion of their business and just increase revenue. You can even send a car out to Germany and they'll fully restore it (at quite a price). The big thing though is they simply produce parts for their older cars.

Mercedes-Benz is also pretty up there for supporting their classic cars. Aston Martin also increasingly building out their support for their cars. Ferrari and Lamborghini starting to get more into the game, but for those brands it very much remains going to a big few shows in the EU to round up parts at times. Toyota, Nissan, Ford, Chevrolet also have some levels of support.

[velhartice]

I worked at the grand opening of the new classic restoration center next to the ATL airport and saw for myself how committed Porsche is to keeping their entire lineage of vehicles on the road. IIRC they said ~75% of all Porsche vehicles ever made are still registered.

[kenhwang]

Really have to thank the 3d printing revolution for a lot of these classic parts support. They no longer have to keep a large supply of all sorts of old parts around in storage, they can just redesign them in a way that can be 3d printed and manufacture them on demand.

[sandworm101]

3d printing isn't as useful as people think, not for old cars. The parts that wear out are the parts that are put under some sort of load. You cannot 3d print a shock absorber. You cannot 3d print a connecting rod or bearing. Sure, you can print out a plastic widget for holding a mirror in place, but you cannot print out the actual mirror when it breaks.

[kenhwang]

Porsche is already thinking of 3d printing piston heads since their research is showing it's stronger than if they forged it.

I don't think there'll ever be a need to 3d print shock absorbers or bearings, since those tend to be commodity wear parts and there will probably always be compatible modern variants (or if you look at some parts guides, many current cars still use the exact same basic parts from several decades ago).

Engine blocks and major large internals like conrods or more commonly needed transmission internals are the parts I think will be most difficult to keep stocked.

[sircastor]

I've got a Nissan LEAF from 2012, and it had a handful of useful features that have disappeared with the loss of the cell network (the original radio was 2G - I didn't upgrade it because they wanted $200, and I think the 3G replacement is also slated to disappear in the near future) While I wish I could remotely warm up the car or set the charging shutoff, it's not a huge loss. Most of the features continue to work perfectly fine.

[bluGill]

It depends on where you live, but in general 3g disappeared before 2g.

[vGPU]

Example: my Lexus had remote start ability. It no longer does, as 3g towers were deprecated.

[itslennysfault]

Not sure why you are specifically calling out EVs. I think all new cars (gas or electric) have internet connectivity and send all sorts of data home.

[sandworm101]

But there exists a large group of people, especially here on HN, that want to execute a series of transport/car revolutions all in short order. There is the connected car, the electrification of cars, the auto-drive car, and the "end to individual car ownership". Many players in the industry want to push all those things to happen at once. Tesla actively pushes 3/4 of them. So it is natural for people to draw parallels, to see one revolution as integral to another.

[Pxtl]

> "end to individual car ownership"

Name one. Name one notable person here on HN who wants to "end individual car ownership". Not to offer an alternative for people who don't need to own a car all day every day, but to end it.

[vGPU]

I don’t know who notable people here are, and don’t really care. The fact is that the opinion that cars should be banned/removed/made second class citizens is an extremely common and popular sentiment on HN.

[unethical_ban]

You are correct, and all carbuyers should be aware. I know I will work with the service department of any new vehicle I buy to determine how to disable communication, if not faraday/RIP out the modem of any car I buy.

That said, I think a lot of non tech savvy people associate the two. My dad dislikes EVs for many reasons Fox News tells him to, but one of them is "self driving cars are never going to be safe or practical". He doesn't get that EVs can exist separate from Tesla self driving shenanigans, or that ICE vehicles are trying to do the same thing.

[madphilosopher]

I'm really hoping a wiki will arise that will show how to disable network (radio) communications on all modern car models.

[mixmastamyk]

It was pioneered there. Not been able to buy a modern EV without it. Ostensibly for range anxiety early on, kept for the sweet revenue. The GM EV1 and Tesla roadster? were probably the last without it.

[sandworm101]

>> Ostensibly for range anxiety ...

The most range-anxious person I ever saw was a tesla driver at a rest stop. A traffic accident had put us on a 150km detour though a different mountain valley, one without cellphone connectivity. He was at the first rest stop trying to figure out whether to push on or attempt to turn around and go home. He didn't have the range to go back, and couldn't figure out of there were any chargers 115km forwards at the next town. No cellphone coverage had turned him into a seething ball of indecision.

[CraigJPerry]

Cars have been running out of gas for 100 years, give or take. To refill an electric car you can usually just pull it with a tow rope for a few miles to recharge.

Doesn’t really seem like a seismic shift in paradigm to be honest. Certainly not to justify a different level of range anxiety than a gas car running a bit low.

[sandworm101]

>> Doesn’t really seem like a seismic shift in paradigm to be honest.

It really does, at least for those not living in big cities. It isn't even really about the range. It is about the limited availability of charging infrastructure, and I don't mean charge points. I mean that any gas-powered car can be "recharged" at the roadside. Someone can give you some gas. That isn't a thing for electric cars.

If a town must evacuate, a thing that does happen, you will want the ICEs vehicles that can be refueled quickly and easily in less-than-ideal conditions. A few years ago Fort McMurray Canada had to evacuate ahead of a wildfire. 80,000 people on the road in maybe 30,000 vehicles. The nearest town was over a hundred miles away, the nearest safe place maybe a hundred more. There were trucks handing out gas/diesel along the evac route to keep people moving. Such an impromptu evacuation would not have been possible using EVs. Evac situations also tend to coincide with loss of grid power (fires/hurricanes/flooding) which only further complicates the problem. Lots of people in small towns keep extra gas at home, or at least know how to syphon gas quickly between vehicles. EVs cannot do such tings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Fort_McMurray_wildfire.

[bsder]

> Such an impromptu evacuation would not have been possible using EVs.

This is, in fact, precisely backward. A fully charged EV will stomp all over a fully gassed ICE in a stop and go evacuation situation.

EVs don't have to idle. So, unlike older combustion engines, they don't use energy unless moving, and they recover most of the same energy when braking. At very low speeds, EVs stomp all over combustion engines. You don't need to refuel people because the EV isn't running out of gas from idling in stopped traffic.

More modern combustion engines turn themselves off. But, even that has its limits as you can't recover the start stop energy like an EV can.

[CraigJPerry]

This seems an absurd take but the absurdity is all in one direction - you can go the other way and maybe find reason again somewhere in the middle:

>> It is about the limited availability of charging infrastructure

You begin most days at home, do you need more than the charging infra? You start each day with the ability to drive 2-4 hours. Are you planning to spend more time driving most days?

An EV sat at home has 80% range. You don’t leave them fully charged usually, for the sake of battery longevity but you absolutely want any excess solar in your remote property being added to your EV rather than sent back to the grid.

That may be more range than the gas car sat next to it on an idle Tuesday when an emergency hits. Who keeps a gas car fully topped up at all times?

With an ev in a remote location, you start every day with 80%. That gas car you meant to fill up when you were next in town? Good luck because:

>> Evac situations also tend to coincide with loss of grid power (fires/hurricanes/flooding)

This means the gas pumps are off. They use electricity, plus the staff are evacuating anyway.

Need to cross a now flooded road? You might have to hitch a ride across in an EV, your gas cars intake might be too low and end up with the engine hydro-locked.

[bluGill]

Sure, but with a gas car the typical response is to hitch a ride to the nearest gas station (which along any highway won't be that far unlike EV chargers), buy a small gas can, fill it up, and hitch a ride back. Sometimes gas stations even have a gas can you can borrow for free so your only extra cost is the time. Once in a while a nice person will even have extra gas in their truck they will just give you for free.

A tow truck by contrast will cost you $100 to get you to a gas station. Tow trucks are great services if the problem is more than out of gas (and some of them will bring gas for less, but you still pay for the service), but there are not what most people use when out of gas.

[cuu508]

Hos much usable range do you get after pulling for a few miles?

[pseudosavant]

It depends on the regen capabilities of the car. My Bolt can regen at 70kw in Low (the one pedal driving mode).

With a 60 kw battery that is about 2% of the battery per minute. Or 1.2kw/minute and I get 3.7 mi/km, so about 4.3 miles of range a minute.

[sandworm101]

Likely something less than a few miles.

[sircastor]

It wasn't pioneered in EVs, it was coincidental timing. These features were always coming to all cars - but features start off in luxury vehicles, and EVs were priced in the luxury category. Go back and look at mid-to-late-2000s luxury vehicles and you'll find the features being developed there, even before the modern electric vehicles started showing up.

[mixmastamyk]

The word pioneer doesn’t imply a solo actor… why I chose the word over invent.

[piperswe]

Yep, I can't think of any automakers that have different connectivity in their EVs than their ICEs.

[nradov]

In general most auto manufacturers are trying to shift their revenue model from periodic auto and parts sales to monthly subscription fees. This isn't linked to EVs. They're trying to force consumers into subscriptions for ICE vehicles as well. This is obviously a negative for consumers, but subscription revenue is seen by Wall Street as more stable and predictable thus it supports higher stock market valuations and better bond credit ratings.

[ElectricalUnion]

A world based on planned obsolescence is aligned with minimum cost optimized components.

It is of no interest for a company to just sell you a thing for cheap, not extract some sort of rent from it and for you to not replace it constantly.

In theory a revenue model based on subscription fees is also more aligned with the preservation of the environment and providing the end-user long term quality components, as to extract said rent smoothly and for as long as possible.

That of course assuming those subscriptions cover actual vehicle maintenance (somewhat like Managed Services Provider do for, say, printers), why not? Transportation-as-a-Service seems a very reasonable X-as-a-Service model .

[GuB-42]

See the Dacia Spring, not only it is an EV for about $20k, but if you look at the interior, you don't even realize it's electric. It is all knobs and dials, some models are equipped with a screen and GPS for navigation, but you won't get more than that in term of connectivity.

[drdaeman]

They have the instruments cluster that looks like a Christmas tree.

Giant colorful "econometer" that screams like "some manager wanted to put an ad to remind you how efficient the car is" that has questionable usability, especially compared to its size. And right-hand side displays a red-colored last block even when the tank is not empty, messing up color coding. It would've made more sense to apply colors where they matter, like on the speedometer when you're going too fast, or when the car is in reverse.

Why can't most car vendors hire someone with a brain for a UI designer?

[tremon]

That sounds great, but I'm a bit sad that it seems to come only in SUV form factor. Do you happen to know if they have anything in less obnoxious sizes?

[lnsru]

It’s not a SUV. It’s small funny car. With catastrophic crash test result. On the pictures is looks indeed like a normal SUV, but it is not.

Crash test: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/dacia/spring/44197

[bonzini]

Spring owner here. It's a cool little car. The main disadvantage is that AC recharging is extremely slow (6.6 kW three phase) because they skimped on battery cooling. And opening/closing the doors feels more like a 1990 Fiat Panda. It obviously doesn't go fast on the highway but in the city it's great, the electric motor gives it surprising acceleration for a 33 kW engine.

It's 3.70 meters long, definitely not an SUV. It's not only the smallest EV (the Volkswagen e-UP is unobtainable at least in Italy) but one of the smallest cars in general.

[avhon1]

Here's an article with a photograph showing the Dacia Spring next to a person. Definitely more of a Pontiac Vibe than an SUV.

https://www.largus.fr/actualite-automobile/dacia-spring-pres...

[eweise]

Looks like a hatchback to me.

[mixmastamyk]

A privacy setting is not enough, as it can easily be switched back on. And we know that happens all the time because of bugs right? wink

No good enough, unless the hardware is not installed.

[throw0101b]

Up to a certain point. From 2015, "New cars in Europe could soon automatically call police when you crash":

* https://driving.ca/auto-news/news/new-cars-in-europe-could-s...

[mdp2021]

According to the regulation, the eCall is only activated as the emergency is triggered (as the airbags trigger). According to what you can expect, it is hard to know if that is the way the manufacturers implemented it.

[hutzlibu]

But this is something very different, from sending all the data from all the sensors (optionally including interior cameras) all the time.

[zolbrek]

I would vote with my wallet in this way too if I could afford a Porsche.

[JJMcJ]

As another proof there were electric cars in the early era around 1900, which clearly did not and could not have phone-home capability.

[sysadm1n]

> It's completely possible to build an EV that isn't connected

    sudo ifconfig eth1 down

[speed_spread]

Rooting your car might very well void the warranty.

[sircastor]

I worked for an automotive company for a while and I recall a meeting wherein were learned about compliance, fault, maintaining records, etc. One thing I learned is that you do not know how far lawyers will go to reach a verdict or a settlement. And if you're reading this right now, I will tell you do not know how far a lawyer and their clients will go to reach a settlement. And that's lawyers on both sides of any argument.

If you ever have an opportunity to attend a training/info seminar put on by legal, I promise you it is way more interesting than it sounds on the face of it.

[hutzlibu]

"And if you're reading this right now, I will tell you do not know how far a lawyer and their clients will go to reach a settlement"

It always depends on how much money is at stake. Usually a lot, when it is about setting a precedent.

[squarefoot]

I wouldn't even try to root it; all I'd ask for is to be able to reach the antenna plug and stick in there a dummy load.

[driverdan]

In the US it would not void your warranty.

[uconnectlol]

gasoline powered cars are a privacy nightmare too and a terrible "its all going digital" nightmare. the problem here is obviously oppression by the majority

[taeric]

That isn't the only real problem with trying to have privacy with your car. And, realistically, this isn't new. It was common a long time ago to know that so and so was at someone's house because you saw their car there. Or you saw their car really anywhere else.

And with how traceable cars are, the idea that it has to do the data sending for you is a bit outdated. If it was ever accurate.

[plagiarist]

"Your face is pretty distinct so it's not a significant difference if shoe companies install GPS and telemetry to track your every movement."

[taeric]

This seems like a non-sequitur? Cars can't track your every movement. But that phone in your pocket is already doing that. Even if it isn't recorded by the phone, the cell towers that your phone is in constant communication with to actually work can do so. Add in the ridiculously lax methodology we took for bluetooth scanning and connection to work, and you leak more information than your car can do well before the car gets internet connected.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a bit concerned about internet connected cars, too. But privacy seems a weak angle there. I'm much more concerned with safety than I am privacy. I fully expect that with all of the license scanners that exist today, if the government wanted to track my movements, that ship sailed a long time ago. I'm not convinced that having the ability to connect to my car from remote is at all safe. Especially to the control facilities.

[kenhwang]

Cars already have a black box like logging system that tracks literally everything the car does continuously in very fine detail. The exact speed and engine load, brake/throttle/steering input, detected tire slip, elevation changes, body roll/pitch/yaw. With that data alone, it's pretty trivial to construct a very exact route, and it's not difficult to figure out where that route fits on a map. Manufacturers already use this data to deny warranty claims.

Vehicles having GPS, compass, cell service, bluetooth, and WiFi just makes that tracking trivial. All that's currently missing is the internet connectivity to upload the data in real time instead of the data being pulled at maintenance. Many manufactures also do have background data upload over cell service, even if they don't expose internet features to the vehicle owner.

[taeric]

Right, I didn't mean to make that sound completely hypothetical. I am assuming their are not regulations on the retention policy of these, though. And, that I think I could support. I'd be fine with disallowing those from being connected to a transmitter. (Though, even there, I can see carve outs for 911 style data assistance. Physical safety may actually be improved with sharing some of this data.)

And, again, I also know it is pretty trivial to recreate exact routes from relatively low powered phones and watches. Because I do that on the regular for cycling and such. I haven't seen a ton of articles worried about the privacy nightmare of smart watches, though? (Mayhap I've just missed them?)

[kenhwang]

The difference is cars aren't comparable to phones anymore. They're already way more capable than phones with always on cameras with sonar and radar mapping in multiple directions, always on mics for voice commands, and even continuous driver face scanning.

Those are also things that are also usually logged, those are things most people probably don't want to be continuously uploaded and recklessly exposed.