Ask HN: How do I start over at 37?

[needadvicebadly]

Quick background: Grew up in an immigrant household with very little in the way of resources, guidance, encouragement. Was enamored by Silicon Valley and tech from a young age, but foolishly followed the family tradition of medicine despite hating it as I felt I had no choice. Went to medical school, dropped out, worked a few odd end gigs for the next couple years, stumbled into a PM role that I was let go from due to performance.

I am now 37 without an impressive educational or professional background, no network of colleagues, no mastery in any one skill, and a whole lot of mental health debt. And yet the child inside of me still wants to pursue the scrappy Silicon Valley tech dream.

Am I deluded? Where do I even begin?

[oppositelock]

If you have the means, get a computer science degree at a reasonable school, and don't listen to people telling it's too late, and that ML is your meal ticket. We have two kinds of jobs here in the valley, the glamorous and competitive, and the really challenging and necessary. The latter are more immune to hype cycles and economic downturns. If you do something along the lines of networking/security, cloud infrastructure, and learn something that confuses other people, say, how to use OAuth2 properly as an example, you will be able to work on the infra side in almost any company. Once you get your foot in the door, then you can learn the latest hottest fad wherever it is that you are, on the job. Infrastructure is the computer industry version of cleaning out the stables for the horses, but it's also necessary everywhere and once you prove yourself and show you are capable of learning on the job, you can work on other stuff. If you start to enjoy infra stuff, you can work anywhere. Don't get stuck doing any kind of process though, don't be the compliance guy, for example.

The biggest shortage in silicon valley is that of capable minds and hands. It's on you to make yourself marketable, but once that's done, there's tons of opportunity. I've been working here since 1996. I'm a grey haired old timer now, and I've seen this industry from big companies, startups, boring companies, and fad companies. Get your foot in the door, the first job won't be glorious, but as you demonstrate skill, pay and rank will follow. Don't go to any of the companies staffed by lots of startup bros, because a wrinkle or some greying hair is a disadvantage there, but there are plenty of other places to start.

[appplication]

This, but do your CS degree online and also do a MS rather than an undergrad. Despite what you might think you need essentially no prior coding experience to enroll and complete most MS programs (though you may be conditionally admitted and need remedials). And any school will do for MS, there is no such thing as a prestigious masters degree. Anyone hunting academic prestige beyond undergrad just gets a doctorate.

[thelastparadise]

Not sure what a CS degree is supposed to help with if this guy wants to pursue the "scrappy SV tech startup" world.

He shouldn't be wasting time learning from professors who have never done anything real and have lived in an academic insulated bubble for decades.

Instead he should be building and shipping product after product until something sticks. And spending just as much time on marketing as development, and putting a lot of time and energy into hiring out and training a team to scale up to the next stage.

[oppositelock]

The degree itself is unimportant, but there are important skills that a CS program teaches, which you can teach yourself, but that degree makes getting interviews a lot easier. Like I said, I've been doing this for a very long time, and worked with many hiring processes.A person without either experience or a recognized degree has a very difficult time getting their foot in the door. I may have misread and thought that the OP was interested in engineering.

For PM's, or management, the skill set and showing that you have it will be different.

[catlover76]

Do you think there would be value in a masters for someone with a few years of experience, but no CS undergrad, and a career break?

[wizzerking]

I am a 68 year old child of a navy family. Mostly far east, all over the USA, and some Europe.My advice from my life is combine your uniqueness into a single unit. Take your background and create an opensource project that can be done quickly 2 - 3 months max and after that is done use that to promote yourself if you want to be a developer/software engineer. If you are into DevOps or DevSecOps do challenges. Pursue what interests you. When Tensorflow and Pytorch were open sourced I started learning by reading Abstracts and posting those articles that interested me and provided code, to encourage more authors to provide code. Now there is paperswithCode, Neurohive and other such sites, but I still learn, and lots of public GitHub and GitLab repo's

Take what is unique about you, what interests you and

[badpun]

Please don't do a quick open source project for the sake of padding one's resume. The world is full of crap software as it is. Such software shows up in people's google searches, takes time to try out, and the user will inevitably find out that it's garbage (you can't do anything good in 2-3 months that wasn't done before if you're just learning) and not use it - but not before they wasted time to research it. Multiply it by say 10k users and you've done some serious harm in the world.

The way to go here is to absolutely code something, but not to pretend that it's a worthwhile project (e.g. don't release it under open source licence). If you put the code in a public repo somewhere so that interviers can see it, clearly state that it's just a learning excercise.

[amerkhalid]

> Multiply it by say 10k users and you've done some serious harm in the world.

I would disagree.

While resume driven open source projects are indeed painful to sift through, you have no idea where these projects may lead to. We should not discourage people especially new devs from contributing. It should be upon experienced devs to learn how to quickly identify code that is worth exploring in more details. Like a year old project with no recent commits, maybe not worth looking further.

[dpbriggs]

What about projects people made for fun and put it online because they're proud of it?

It's also common advice to put your portfolio online. They really don't show up in internet searches as far I've seen.

[holografix]

What do you mean by scrappy Silicon Valley tech dream?

I think you’re 5-10 years late unless you turn yourself into a GenAI/Machine Learning specialist very quickly. The Bay Area has attracted the worst type of people to compete with. It’s packed full of gold miners and even more shovel sellers. Try somewhere else.

Do you have any money? Are you technically savvy? Can you take a 12 months course from a reputable institution that may award you a ML qualification?

Turn your age and background into a strength. You’re mature, dependable, hungry, professional. You show up, you get it, you can relate with the middle age hiring manager. You need a chance and you won’t waste it like some 25 year old jib hopping. You’re willing to work for a little less but not much less.

[mplewis]

ML is a boom/bust industry and it’s a current fad. I recommend looking for infra work instead — plumbing is always in style.

[aristofun]

I have a friend who in her 30s being a single mother of 2 kids and working as a doctor surgeon, but living in a shitty conditions in a shitty city in russia - made her way to being a well paid software engineer living in California.

She started with some courses, bootcamps (one of which was created by me - this is how i know her), some first shitty jobs and gigs and gradually built herself from there.

Within ~5 years.

Despite some arrogant naysayers suggesting her getting a CS degree first or chose different path at all.

[Cypher]

I'm lost too although in 40s and stuck in dead end job that has basically meant I've stagnated for 15 years while all my peers have 2-3x me. I'm left behind and fear it's too late with the current economic climate.

[nytesky]

Similar boat, but more that the industry I’m in has low pay, so even with advancing career I don’t make much.

But I do have work life balance which has been valuable for my family, and a series of health crisis that I weathered over the last decade. Hopefully your dead end job has stability and gives you some other solace?

I would focus on a side gig, building a portfolio project in something that interests you and maybe eventually could be used as a business or to showcase your skills in applying for a job. Getting time for that can be a challenge with existing job and other life demands, but then you have to realize that just hopping onto the Bay Area tech scene would likely have required a similar grind so maybe it wasn’t all that for you?

[illegalsmile]

Same here. Do I go back for a MS in CS or something else? Seems unlikely especially having taken a number of graduate courses. I'm a general systems engineer so I've thought about drilling down into specifics like Microsoft cloud architecture, or AI/ML architecture, or even authentication and gaining certificates to switch jobs. Then I think about starting an IT consulting business that would hire remote workers only and feel overwhelmed by that prospect. Part of me wants to get out altogether and start a pizza joint. Lots of options, too many.

If I wanted to I could probably stay at the same company for the next 20 years and retire but that sounds uninspiring and ultimately quite depressing. Two years ago was the time to do something but now is OK too. In another two years I will look back thinking "why didn't I make a move then?"

I know the feel, wish I had something better than my own story for you!

[Lmoper]

I’m speaking to myself more than to you (I am in the same boat): invest in yourself, not your job.

[throwaway19423]

Same here. What sort of work do you do? I feel like I need a support group.

[throwaway19423]

I'm a decade older than you, have a PhD, in corporate research doing AI and feel EXACTLY the same way.

Early on, I had multiple opportunities to make a life in the Bay area. I stupidly did not take those opportunities.

My coding skills are no longer competitive and I am competing (and getting out-gunned) at the highest level.

Some of the suggestions here to build something you care about feel to ring true. I am also mulling this. It is hard to make time for this later in life but I feel there is no other way. I am also mulling taking a big pay cut and relocate the family to the Bay area. It feels very risky but I feel I won't be able to live with myself.

[mgl]

Hi mate,

Life is long and we can restart our journey at any time, so no worries.

The best advice I could give is to start meeting people and (always!) learn new things.

Action on you: go to meetup.com, find three interesting events in your area, go there with no expectations, just listen and meet new people.

You are smart. You will work it out.

[needadvicebadly]

How do I realistically compete with those who are younger, more nimble, with impressive educational & professional backgrounds? The startup world seems to be far more of a status game nowadays than when I fell in love with it 15 years ago. What does someone with 0 social capital to open doors do, especially at this age?

[james-revisoai]

Show genuine interest in a project, be better at meeting deadlines (by overestimating) than others, show social skills most in tech are weaker at.

There are many edges you can have compared to most tech folk. Why not try using ChatGPT to begin some python and html coding and make some things you can get excited about when showing people?

You don't need social capital for a more entry type role, so don't overthink this

[Clubber]

>How do I realistically compete with those who are younger, more nimble, with impressive educational & professional backgrounds?

Most devs out there right now are hot garbage, even with 10+ years experience and a degree. I just went through a few rounds of interviewing applicants, so I know. If you are passionate about it, you need to be building stuff in your spare time and learning constantly. If you don't like it that much, the field probably isn't for you.

If you are really starting from scratch, hit up the recruiting/job sites in your area and learn the language that has the most jobs. You need to learn database too.

[comprev]

The simple answer is you don't. Be realistic about who the competition is and which jobs to aim for.

When reaching for the moon try reaching the top shelf first, and use that to stand on.

[lizardking]

If you are genuinely committed to landing a job in Silicon Valley, you may need to start somewhere else and truly exceed expectations. Would working for a tech company in the midwest be better or worse than your current situation? If it would be better then why not try that first?

From there I would suggest the following:

  - If your craft isn't already your main hobby, turn it into your main hobby.

  - Network as much as you can. Meetup.com is very useful for this purpose.

  - Use your network to find a mentor. Someone knowledgeable who has achieved what you're aiming for and is willing to help you.

Many people in tech do the bare minimum and still manage to build impressive careers. If you excel at your job, are passionate about your craft, and can construct a compelling narrative to market yourself to employers, you'll be ahead of most of the competition. Most of the competition never makes it to sv, but if you are ahead of them then you're moving in the right direction.

And so what if you fall short and end up in Cincinnati, able to afford a comfortable life? Would that really be so bad?

[rman666]

You start over every day. We all do. Get to work on your dreams now! You have lots of time to do great things! I’m 60 and I code everyday, and I working on my next startup. I’ve tried four, and haven’t had an exit yet. But that’s not going to stop me or stop me from believing that I can achieve my dreams.

[Loxicon]

I started again at 32. Similar story to you (kinda).

4 years later, I can build anything I want with lines of code in 3 languages. Best part = building is free (it takes time tho) + it's fun.

My advice to you is to decide what you want to work on by building things.

It's true that learning CS is important. But you can just read books + do youtube lectures on the side from the big colleges.

The tech dream you are referring too is about building things. There is a lot to that but nothing beats actually building things for users.

Also, remember that knowledge work (like tech) still have people working at 70 years old. I have conversations with programmers who are around that age. They haven't slowed down.

To answer your question, where do I begin, start by building something that you would have used in a PM role. Once you have the project in mind, the details will fall into place (google!)

[hbossy]

Ask HN: How do I start over at 37? Quick background: Grew up in an immigrant household with very little in the way of resources, guidance, encouragement. Was enamored by House MD and medicine from a young age, but foolishly followed the family tradition of computer science despite hating it as I felt I had no choice. Went to technical school, dropped out, worked a few odd end gigs for the next couple years, stumbled into a UAP role that I was let go from due to performance. I am now 37 without an impressive educational or professional background, no network of colleagues, no mastery in any one skill, and a whole lot of mental health debt. And yet the child inside of me still wants to pursue the scrappy John Hopkins surgeon dream.

[frje1400]

I started a Bachelor's in CS in 2019, graduated in 2022 at age 38, and got a dev job that I really enjoy. I was one of the older students (but not the oldest!) and it felt like half the class was older than your typical university student.

I had only had fairly low skilled jobs (and lots of unemployment) earlier in life. I even dropped out of college when I was younger, just like you. I definitely graduated at just the right time, but I think that it can be done, and it's not as weird anymore to go back to school when you're older.

I was extremely motivated because I felt like it was my last shot, and I knew that I really enjoyed programming after doing a couple of MOOCs and such.

[hnthrowaway0315]

I'd say treat the mental health first. What tech do you like?

I started my career from 36 and I'm working as a data engineer right now. I didn't have a CS background either and before I launched my IT career I worked as a customer service for a telecom. And before that I worked as a cleaner for some sushi shop during the afternoon and a phone surveyer during the night.

But I was lucky to catch up the post 2015 IT frenzy gravy train. Right now they are throwing people out of the train so I'm not sure what's the opportunity out there.

[undefineduser]

I'm in the same boat. My one piece of unqualified advice would be to build something from start to finish and avoid the "tutorial hell".

It can be anything; preferable a small-scale project to avoid the possibility of getting lost in the daunting scale of something supposedly "impressive" but overly complicated at this stage of your learning journey.

One finished project of 200 lines of code is more impressive than 10 unfinished "apps" that grew to big in concept and scope (at least in my opinion).

[csomar]

> And yet the child inside of me still wants to pursue the scrappy Silicon Valley tech dream.

So go do that? You fail to mention whether you live in a developed country (the US), you have a family, kids, or you want to have a family in the short-term, or you have parents to take care of. Because that matters more than the rest.

If you don't have any obligations, I'd just buy myself a ticket to S.E.A or Latin America and forget all about it. That's just what I did it.

[cjbprime]

Sorry to be the thread's unwanted armchair fake psychologist, but you might consider getting an ADHD screening if you haven't, just because some (possibly all) of the experiences you described seem compatible with unmanaged ADHD.

That aside, I agree it's not too late! For example, most of the people with new LLM startups probably didn't know much at all about LLMs two years ago. Sometimes everyone gets to be a new learner at the same time.

[syntheweave]

Some people reach this point when they are 18 and their parents abruptly kick them out. Others reach it when they are in their late 20's and "fail to launch", guilting themselves into burnout. And a third set are in your scenario and realize that they hate the trajectory they were pushed onto.

It is all the same problem: you need to develop a more coherent sense of yourself, and what you are shaping yourself to study. The work follows from the study, not the other way around; people arrive at a certain kind of work by trading off what they want to do, what the work allows them to do, the amount of stress they experience, and the self-dignity they sacrifice in the process of doing the work. You don't want to go into a field to satisfy a certain identity need, because that's something that can be used against you to gatekeep and say, "oh, you're not a real programmer, you're not a real artist, you're not a real entrepreneur" and to justify your exploitation. It has to come from somewhere else.

This is the kind of subject that, in the 20th century, was discussed by "What Color is Your Parachute?" But, while it's gotten a lot of new editions, I don't think the specifics of that book are so relevant now.

What I suggest instead is to sit down with some paper and make Venn diagrams: who you are, what you keep thinking about, what people seem to appreciate in your work, and what kinds of problems or situations you don't seem bothered by relative to others. Find the overlap. The center of the diagram is the outline: "this is me and this is how I genuinely want to present myself."

And then find the opportunities, and create another diagram around the overlap of you and the opportunities. There is always a "new thing" coming up, that needs people to do work in it. Sometimes you are positioned perfectly for it. Other times you can find a more peripheral space in it, like the advice given to accounting students that they can work in "any industry" because everyone needs accounting.

And then, from the overlap of that, begin the process of marketing yourself. Make your social media profile and your blogposts and send emails as an "interested student". You will get ghosted in some instances, and get some access to real conversations in others.

If you determine you need to pick up a skillset, the same process applies. Diagram out what's known about the field, perhaps drawing from your interviews and emails. Identify overlaps. Position yourself to pick up the necessary background to be within that overlap, to be the person somebody grabs when they need a certain kind of problem solved. If 4-year CS undergrads can do it, you, an experienced 30-something, can probably do it in 18 months. The technical training is ultimately all muscle memory, a thing you practice with monkey-see, monkey-do, over and over, until the task is familiar and the knowledge is memorized.

Although not everything technical is easy to grasp, in the broad view of getting involved and employed, it is actually that simple.

[mortallywounded]

What is your dream exactly? To have a startup idea, get funding and live the scrappy life of building a billion dollar company? If so, probably don't do it.

If your dream is pick up a skill like web development and join (or build your own) company, then totally give it a shot.

You don't need to do it in the valley either.

[GianFabien]

Begin by completing what you started: I'm pursuing my scrappy SV tech dream by creating X which solves problem P for market M.

For more details, read Steve Blank's "The Four Steps to the Epiphany".

[trumbitta2]

You begin here: https://www.freecodecamp.org/

[brianjking]

What was the poor performance that caused you to be let go?

Good luck, friend. I don't think it is too late.

[the_bookmaker]

Hit the gym: https://www.julian.com/guide/muscle/intro

Grind leetcode: https://leetcode.com/

[NtochkaNzvanova]

^ Unironically the best answer.

[jameshush]

I agree. Incredibly simple but I’ve seen people do exactly this for 4 months after a layoff and get into FAANG companies.

[Lmoper]

Grind leet code, I get. But gym? Is that to make sure your mental health is in order?

[catlover76]

Well, for starters, I would ask:

Did you like being a PM?

What job did you perform in medicine?

TBH, I can't help with the mental health stuff, but my route has also been circuitous, so maybe I can offer practical advice.

I was a software engineer, went to law school (I am an idiot), was in law for a bit, now looking for engineering jobs again.