[col_rad]

Yeah, 4-tracks are a big inspiration for this Track8 I'm currently building.

My goal is to provide a similar experience. Immediate, tactile controls. Directly writing to a digital "tape". But without the analog restrictions like the need to rewind.

I now use it all the time for laying down new ideas, and only use the DAW for Mixing/Mastering.

Restrictions can sometimes be really liberating.

https://thingstone.com

[ilyt]

That's pretty limited on input count even compared to original Tascam. I'd think having to fuck around with cabling or having whole extra mixer just to swap what it is sent to it might be pretty annoying.

One idea to get around that (provided the whatever CPU you use there have that feature) would be USB host mode, many of the more modern devices have USB audio mode where they present themselves as soundcard, or user can then just use normal audio interface to give it extra inputs.

[col_rad]

Thats a feature request I get quite often.

From a hardware perspective it's already possible to attach a 3rd party core audio USB Audio Interface. I've just not implemented the feature yet.

It's simply not a use case I have. I usually only record one Input at a time. Track 8 has 3 Inputs (Stereo/Mono/XLR) and I can wire up all my gear to these inputs and then select from what source to record via the Mechanical Rotary Switch. That's very easy to use and intuitive.

If I'd add more Inputs (like the tascam) I'd have the same Issue they have: how to map an Input to a track. Or have a fixed mapping (Input 1 only records to Track 1). In find both scenarios quite inconvenient for an intuitive workflow (I tried a lot of Multitrack recorder before deciding to build this)

So yeah, Track8 is quite opinionated in regards of workflow and features. But I don't want to turn this into a can-do-it-all DAW in a box.

And for me it's fine if it's a niche product.

[bluGill]

So long as you can export to USB all the tracks i'd call it good. Record in peace, then if you want more take those tracks to a real DAW for editing. The easy to record where you are is a major feature as setting up a computer in a different room for a 5 minute song is not worth it.

I'm looking for an easy way for my kid to record himself, so i'm more concerned about durability as it will be abused. To that end i'd prefer to see features like take an mp3 from the instruction book website and play along (this is often hard to download).

[col_rad]

Yes there is a Stem export to USB Drive (besides a mix export). This gives you 8 WAV files. 1 per Track.

In the latest Hardware revision I added the capability for a USB Device mode. So you can attach Track8 to a PC and directly access the internal SSD.

Idk if Track8 is suited for kids. Sure it's durable. But because of the heavy weight and metal case there might be accidents happening when dropping it on siblings ;) Also it might be a bit complex to operate depending on the kids age.

There's an Audio import from USB, but currently it only supports WAV. I still have to find the time to include a mp3 decoder.

Track8 has no Wifi/Bt/Internet connectivity whatsoever. (because the certification is a big pain). So you'd have to copy everything you want to import to a USB Drive.

[ilyt]

> If I'd add more Inputs (like the tascam) I'd have the same Issue they have: how to map an Input to a track. Or have a fixed mapping (Input 1 only records to Track 1). In find both scenarios quite inconvenient for an intuitive workflow (I tried a lot of Multitrack recorder before deciding to build this)

I didn't mean recording on multiple channels at once, just purely ability to select inputs easily instead of moving cables. But yeah, there is real cost in analog ones, both in parts and panel size.

USB on the other hand could lead to some neat workflows, just connect a synth and drum machine via one USB cable to hub and that's it. No audio cabling, no MIDI cabling etc. Just allow for one-input-at-time recording for the sake of simple workflow.

Then again that of course depends what you record. I have few devices doing USB audio, but obviously that's not all that useful feature to someone doing that with mic, some old synth, old drum machine and a guitar.

[iosonofuturista]

Wow, this seems absolutely amazing for my use case.

Seems a perfect machine to just connect a nice synth with a multi fx pedal, and crank out a new song in a couple of hours! No distractions.

I guess I wont be able to justify the asking price you seem to be avoiding mentioning (which I can totally understand why, don't get me wrong), but I will surely follow the progress with great interest!

In any case, congrats and best of luck!

[col_rad]

Ahh yeah, price :sweat_smile: with 100 Units as a first batch I'd have to ask for EUR 1500 (incl. 20% Tax) or EUR 1250 (without tax to non EU customers).

Anything below, and it would be hard to make profit if sold via a reseller. (they grab like 30-40%)

[iosonofuturista]

Not my thing personally, but would you consider making a kit version like other manufacturers? At least for the early adopters could be a nice route and lower the price somewhat.

Although you did not mention it I never expected a sub 1000€ price tag.

That would make it the most expensive piece of gear in my home studio, if you do not count the laptop.

As I said, it certainly seems to tick all the boxes, but hard to justify. I still hope that you can validate the concept and in a couple of years I can grab one for around 500€.

Once again, best of luck on a very interesting if very niche project!

[col_rad]

I briefly thought about making a Kit version ... but this actually does not make it much cheaper. As long as there is anything pre soldered to the Board, you'd need CE to comply in the EU. (some manufacturers simply ignore that) Besides this, PCB assembly is pretty cheap compared to all the Component Costs.

And as I'm currently doing the end assembly by myself, for free. There is no cost saving in this either.

I might be able to make a cheap version in the future. But this would probably be a completely different product (no full size connectors, smaller display, made in china, ...) It would only share the software with the current version.

[follower]

Have you considered pricing the first batch at EUR 4000 each? :)

To quote myself[0] from too long ago:

"Very rarely will someone tell you that you're not charging as much for something as you should (perhaps with the exception of patio11 because he wants us all to make more money :) ) but generally there's always someone who will say something costs too much."

Due to a number of factors (including some past experience with hardware development & a recognition that most people purchasing low volume hardware do not have a realistic perspective on the costs involved) one of my hobbies is suggesting low volume hardware developers consider increasing their prices in order to potentially create a more financially sustainable business over the long term. (An outcome which is both better for the developer & their customers.)

Of course, such suggestions cost me nothing (as I don't currently have the disposable income either way) and their worth can be valued at the price you paid for them. :)

(And if @jacquesm advises you otherwise, I'd advise ignoring me. :D )

On the other hand if you decide to increase the price by even EUR 100 and you still sell out the batch, well, "it's free real estate" as they say...

Anyway, the prototype unit you demo in the SOS video looks really slick, so, nice work. :)

In case it's helpful here is a link dump[1] of various hardware-related manufacturing/pricing resources I've collected over the years, in rough suggested reading priority order:

* Case study of mechanical keyboard kits and "Vickrey auction as price discovery mechanism": https://kevinlynagh.com/notes/pricing-niche-products/

* Advice via "co-founder & former CEO of Contour" action camera company (esp. excellent section on pricing): https://learn.adafruit.com/how-to-build-a-hardware-startup?v...

* "Hardware by the Numbers (Part 2: Financing + Manufacturing)": https://blog.bolt.io/hardware-financing-manufacturing/

* "Will Your Hardware Startup Make Money?": https://blog.bolt.io/make-money/

The more VC-funded startup focused info may be less directly applicable to your situation but still has value.

Also, if you haven't already I'd suggest looking into the journey of the Synthstrom Deluge[2] (& maybe contacting them) as it seems to share some characteristics with you & your product in terms of market, pricing & team size. (I'm familiar with it primarily from meeting some of the team early-ish in their journey due to living in the same city at the time.)

Hope some of this is of use & either way, best wishes for the journey ahead!

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8453391

[1] Mostly extracted from an earlier post/rant of mine here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15444477 (Also, archived link of a couple more: http://web.archive.org/web/20160330204925/http://www.labrado... )

[2] https://synthstrom.com

[timc3]

That looks like a really interesting device, are you involved with the design?

One thing I used to really love with the early four and later eight tracks, was they had a mini mixing desk in them, and you could do things with them such as taking a line out and putting it into another channel, through some effects or playing the faders.

[col_rad]

This is currently a one-man-show. So I'm doing everything by myself.

I have a simple mixing section (Volume/Pan) for each of the 8 Tracks. And there is a TrackFx (Filter/Compressor/Delay-send/Reverb-send) and MasterFx (Compressor/Delay/Reverb)

You can route the audio out back into the input(with a cable, no internal routing). But you can also do automation per track. Currently only Volume/Pan, maybe also Fx Parameters in the future.

The hardest part of adding features is always, how do I make them accessible to keep the immediate feeling.

Here's a video from SuperBooth where I describe some of it's features. I added a lot of stuff since then ... and I'm not a sales dude so the interview was quite awkward ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8u0Z55G2-0

[timc3]

How did I miss this? Thought I had seen all the YouTube videos on Superbooth! And you shouldn’t think you have to make excuses for the presentation - it was great, your sense of enthusiasm for it really came across as well as what it’s capable of and why you are doing it. Fantastic stuff.

Now I will be spending the day working out whether this is something I need in my studio ( the price puts it into a category where I really want to make sure it is something I will be using rather than buying it because I think its cool).

[col_rad]

Yeah pricing is always an issue. I obviously can't compete with bigger Companies on price. I hope to have a first Batch of 100 Units ready at next SuperBooth. And at that Batch size, everything is quite expensive.

I also didn't want to compromise on Component quality. So I decided to order double shot Keycaps from the best Keycap Manufacturer in the US (solutionsinplastic.com). The case comes from a small Manufacturer in Poland. The PCB is produced by a Company in South Germany that also does Prototypes for Mercedes.

This all adds up. But I thought, if I can't compete on Price, I can try to compete on quality/repairability.

If I can prove product market fit, maybe I'll do a cheaper, less boutique version in the future.

[jacquesm]

Absolutely awesome. Is it available to outsiders already?

[col_rad]

It's still not for sale.

I sent the last prototypes to a couple of Beta Testers (Actual Composer/Music Producer, no Youtubers) and took their feedback to make a lot of Hardware/Software improvements.

If you're a professional Music Producer and want to test a Prototype, just send me a mail via the website.

The next batch of Prototypes, planed for EoY, will be a bit bigger, to get even more feedback and there are a lot of requests from reseller that want to try it out extensively (Thomann for example). I'll also have to do a new EMI/ESD check (hopefully the last one)

As I said in another comment, I aim to have a Batch of 100 ready for sale around May next Year. But lets see how this plays out. Hardware is hard ;)

[jacquesm]

I know hardware is hard (I've built a bunch of electronics for machine control and in the dark ages of IT electronics was my bread and butter). These days I'm active as an investor and consultant to investors as well as with my own music related project (pianojacq.com). If I can be of any use to you let me know, email is in profile, I've just subscribed to your newsletter. I'd love to see this project succeed.

[follower]

I took a quick look at pianojacq.com and can relate to the sentiment you expressed with "I wanted to concentrate on making music, not on endless runs and other boring ways of practicing"--although in my case it relates more to creating new music rather than performing.

Interested to hear more about your experience with VexFlow if there's anything more to share on top of it being "very nice". :)

I think VexFlow was one of the projects I encountered when I was recently looking for musical score rendering solutions for a somewhat non-typical context[0].

In the end I settled on using a Standard Music Font Layout (SMuFL) reference font directly rather than a higher level engraving library which led to a result that was...mixed. I share (a.k.a. rant about :) ) my experience more toward the end of a HN comment[1] in case the topic is of interest.

[0] A 7-day game jam entry created with Godot 4: https://rancidbacon.itch.io/stave-off

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35139269

[jacquesm]

VexFlow is kind of tricky to use but extremely versatile and probably saved me a year (or two) in getting pianojacq.com up and running but I am still in the process of optimizing the code, last year during a holiday I did a complete refactoring to make it all more readable and I still have a plan to re-work the interface to VexFlow into something nicer than what is there right now. The problem is that there are 6 different representations of the score in memory right now (midi, VexFlow, visual (bitmaps), timing (milliseconds), pianoroll (for the sustained notes) and finally beats and bars. All of these serve different functions and have to be kept in sync so the bookkeeping gets to be a bit ugly. There is yet another representation used to reverse from pixels on the screen to notes. I suspect every program like that suffers from a similar problem that in order to do things fast you need to keep it around in the representation that is most suitable for the problem you're solving at that moment in time. For instance, during midi decoding I don't have time to parse the whole data structure but I do need to know if a note is still sustaining.

Edit: I looked at your stuff, did you know about:

https://guides.loc.gov/music-notation-preferred-preservation...

[col_rad]

♥