[martin_a]

As with all these threads, don't forget that survivorship bias exists.

For everybody in that thread, 100 times the number of people exist that haven't done so well or good at all. Don't feel bad if you're not as successful. There's more to life than making 20k+ a month.

[checkyoursudo]

I have made around 25k/month (gross) and 0/month (or even negative, if you count having to use savings to live). The reality for me has been that the amount of stress that comes with making 25k is not entirely dissimilar to the amount of stress that comes from making 0, albeit from different causes. I am much happier where I currently am, somewhere in the middle. I make about average for where I live, and that is perfectly fine with me.

[Zaofy]

Pretty much this. Whilst I've never earned more than 20k a month I've a couple of friends who do. And they're fairly miserable despite the money. Same with my friends who earn far less than me or even nothing. It's just a different kind of miserable.

I much prefer what I do now. A job that is sometimes stressful, that I even outright hate on rare occasions, but that is on average fulfilling and fun and lets me go to bed with a clear conscience. All while I still have enough free time and left over money to actually spend the money I earn on things I enjoy.

Now if someone gave me a choice between earning 20k a month or earning nothing a month, I'd still chose the former. I'd rather struggle with the mental issues and stress that come along with it than living in constant fear how I'd pay for my next meal...

But Ideally I'll have built up enough savings to retire early at some point and live off of the interest generated. Best of both worlds.

[methuselah_in]

these days people are more happy in getting less at and spend more time at home doing nothing of doing nothing or going out.

[herbst]

I make more than I need and way less than I could. Nothing is more valuable than waking up and doing exactly what I want to do that day. Everyday.

No idea why so many people always aim for more money instead of more freedom

[nullindividual]

Freedom requires security, which requires money.

[herbst]

But once you have enough, why aim for more?

[howrar]

You never reach 100% freedom and security. You only approach it asymptotically as you gain more money. So maybe for some, their threshold for "enough" is higher than you think. Maybe for someone else, they just haven't figured out what to do with the freedom yet, so they keep going and moving marginally closer to that 100% so they can better enjoy it when they do know what to do with it.

[jskrablin]

You can't buy time. And a demanding job that'll get you that 20k/month will start to degrade your health at some point, rather sooner than later. And in most of the world even 'only' 1/4 of that will make sure you're living a quality life, esp if you can earn it with part time work while spending extra free time exactly how you want to.

But hey, people finding happiness in owning more than they can spend or use are free to work as much as they possibly can.

[siva7]

Where the heck do you live that 13k/month is an average salary for an it expert?

[HDThoreaun]

Median household in the bay is around 130k, not far off

[noobermin]

I don't feel bad because of some silly concept like "self-worth." More money means I wouldn't have to feel squeezed when the pharmacy sends me the bill at the end of the month. Money means freedom, and only after some point does it become a penis measuring contest.

[rjh29]

Obligatory comment that countries exist where the "pharmacy bill" is either $0 or sufficiently low that it will never cause stress.

For people living in those countries, health costs are no longer an incentive to earn a lot. In the UK in fact, the pharmacy is free for people on low incomes but roughly £120/year for everyone else. The same applies to the dentist.

[gumballindie]

Why is there always someone commenting about survivor’s bias? Should people not even aim for it because many will not make it? Is that the purpose? I find these types of comments super annoying. The crab in a bucket mindset seems strong. Either way 20k a month is peanuts, and definitely doable. We need more stories about how rather than stories of why you cant.

[iteria]

People mention survivorship bias because 20K/mo isn't doable in some situations. 20k/ is 240K/yr. That isn't peanuts in the vast majority of the US. I'm a programmer and I make multiples of whole families in my area and I can't see making 240K/yr without extreme amounts of stress and deciding to dedicate my life to work (which I won't do), for my tradesmen family members, I have no idea how they'd do it without running a business with several employees which everyone can't do. If you live outside of the super high cost of living places in the US, anyone you see making 240K definitely had some luck involved. It's right to call that out so that when people fail they know that it wasn't that they sucked, but that the stars didn't align for them in this situation. The odds are probably better than playing the lotto, but depending on your life situation, the chances might not be much better.

[gumballindie]

There really is nothing intellectually stimulating in learning that there is misery out there and that you too can fail. A cat can tell you that there's misery out there. What's interesting is knowing how to build things and get out of said misery. If you surround yourself with stories about losers you'll think that there are only losers out there and you'll get stuck. This is a forum about hackers and hacking a way out is far more interesting than constant posting about "survivorship bias". I want to learn stories about how people, small or large, build things that matter - not just plumb APIs and "hack" a new language. Those are cool too but those aren't the only "problems" that need solving. And indeed there are forums dedicated to that but I want to hear is the more "scientific" side of making commercially successful things, and like me there are plenty - but some have been alienated by this boring mindsent.

[penjelly]

parent mentioned survivorbias as a precaution for those who think its their destiny to make 20k/month after reading the OP.

> This is a forum about hackers and hacking a way out

yes, and as such you'll run into the folks with opinions on either side of the discussion, how is that not more intellectually stimulating than the alternative?

[laserlight]

> Why is there always someone commenting about survivor’s bias?

To educate and remind people of survivorship bias, so as to prevent this:

https://xkcd.com/1827/

[hcks]

These mandatory lectures on survivorship biais are annoying, especially when we’re not talking about Elon Musk levels of insane success.

20k a month is… what make an average senior SWE in the USA?

It’s ridiculous to think you’d have only 1% chance of making it to that level of revenue.

[heartbreak]

Before I read the linked thread I thought this whole post was about salaries. I don’t know about average SWE in the USA, but it’s certainly common in some markets.

You can be rank-and-file in software, law, and medicine and exceed $20k/mo after taxes.

Makes the risk in entrepreneurship not worth it for me.

[tomohelix]

Where do you live that a rank and file would make something like 350K a year? Because that is the minimum required to have 20K a month *after* taxes.

[heartbreak]

For a SWE? Remotely anywhere, but otherwise major markets. Same with biglaw. Medicine is its own beast.

[ryandrake]

> You can be rank-and-file in software, law, and medicine and exceed $20k/mo after taxes.

I mean, you "can" do a lot of things. That doesn't mean it's common. You "can" hit a hole in one, be struck by lightning or win the lottery, after all.

Someone on HN knows someone who's brother's uncle's girlfriend's roommate's cousin makes $750K/yr as a L7 superstar at Google in Silicon Valley, therefore "You can make $750K as a SWE" is technically a true statement. This true statement somehow evolves into "SWEs commonly make $750K, look at levels.fyi" which further evolves into "SWEs on average make $750K." Neither of which are true.

[red-iron-pine]

the average salary in the US is like 58k. 200k USD makes you the global 1%, even if you're not the US 1%.

plus if I believe levels.fyi, 200k+ is F500 programmers, and mostly those at FAANGs or other high-end orgs. Plenty of folks ain't.

But yeah, 20k/mo. is mid-level legit-org SWE pay.