[JellyBeanThief]

The fundamental problem Dawkins is struggling with is that he is asking for reasoned disagreement on Twitter, which is well-known for a desert of reason. If he truly desires thoughtful discussion, he needs to do it with real people in the real world.

And that's so obvious that I begin to wonder if he's sincere, or if he's just stirring up shit to capture people's attention.

[friend_and_foe]

This problem goes beyond Twitter. You simply can't have a reasoned discussion on this topic, anywhere.

[system7rocks]

Again, I disagree. Trans folks are not unreasoned. They are open to the immense challenging reality that is their identity. It's different. Go in with humility. Listen. Learn. Ask questions. Be open. All will be well.

[friend_and_foe]

I have. Of every trans person I've had conversations with about this, only one ever had a real conversation with me. The rest just didn't want to hear my viewpoints or get asked any substantiative questions because they made them feel bad. Most of my interactions I've been called names, many they just didn't want to have the conversation. I have never, anywhere on the internet or in real life, seen an example of a clear headed discussion on this topic between two people that disagree fundamentally about all this.

[yyyiy]

I recall that the subreddit "GCdebatesQT" had some quite clear-headed discussions about this, back in the day. Not all, just some. Unfortunately it was banned by Reddit's management a few years ago, along with all the other gender-critical subs. Which is a shame as it was one of the few forums where such discussion could be reasonably had.

(There's an archive here if you're interested in having a browse: https://www.itsafetish.org/archives/gcdebatesqt.)

On the other hand, the "ChangeMyView" subreddit also sometimes had constructive debate on this subject, but just a couple of days ago the moderators threw in the towel as it was getting too difficult to manage these discussions: https://old.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/16hxvf8/meta_.... Perhaps an indication that it's now too divisive a topic for reason to prevail.

[em-bee]

part of the problem is that some people can't differentiate between disagreement and rejection.

and that's understandable. how do you show acceptance of someone if you disagree with their understanding of gender.

i don't know what your viewpoint is, or what you would disagree with, so i can't comment on the specifics. but talking with someone who has an opposing viewpoint can be difficult if i don' know that person and i can't trust that they will accept me and love me (in the "love thy neighbor" sense) even if they reject my understanding or belief

[D13Fd]

I think part of the problem is that we all spend so much time online, where we are anonymous and mostly unaccountable. People understandably tend to become hyper-sensitive after years of online discussion, which makes even in-person discussion tough.

I’m honestly amazed that we’ve managed to make so much progress on these issues over the last 15 years. Remember, in 2008 Barack Obama couldn’t even support gay marriage. I don’t know how exactly we’ve done it, but I hope we keep it going.

[ghink]

In most spaces that I tried to ask questions about this topic, when first wondering about the contradictions in this ideology, I was pilloried and sometimes even banned from the space. These were typically leftist political spaces where I was already a participant.

So I listened and learned, and ended up realising that all of this is built upon unfalsifiable beliefs that I have no obligation to accept. Like, a man who calls himself a woman is a woman? Nope, not affirming that nonsense.

[klyrs]

He's salty about getting demonetized on youtube. Which is a little ironic since transwomen's makeup tutorials are demonetized. Which is the horseshoe theory of advertising: if it ain't mainstream, don't put your brand on it.