[sho_hn]

> But this time it's worse because the APIs are DE/Toolkit specific without the standardization that X11 offered.

On this one: It's not really that different. Very little if any KDE code made any direct calls to Xlib or xcb past the very early years. Most of this was also hidden by Qt abstractions, and toward app/shell devs most certainly by further KDE library abstractions. Directly interacting with X11 was an almost-never occurence.

Fairly similar in other toolkits, since most of them have some sort of cross-platform strategy and infra.

People sometimes have kind of odd notions of how exactly X11 development was different. X11 had its fair share of "fragmented implementations" immaturity. It had its fair share of "this new standard is not widely implemented yet" phases that people just don't remember because they started using it after things had settled down (e.g. NetWM and EMWH protocol extensions did not always exist, and also got interpreted quite differently sometimes, or e.g. the clipboard spec). DEs also did plenty of DE-specific things on X11 using proprietary window hints or DBus-based side channel protocols.

If there's one broad philosophical difference, it's Wayland has some widely-respected values around who gets to introspect what state and who acts as authority, that mean that things that X11 apps could monkey-patch may now require a protocol to be agreed on. But there's a lot of value in agreed-upon protocols, and X11 also needed many of them.

[hulitu]

> Most of this was also hidden by Qt abstractions, and toward app/shell devs most certainly by further KDE library abstractions. Directly interacting with X11 was an almost-never occurence.

How do you think Qt draws on the screen ?

[Bjartr]

Right, but Qt abstracts that interaction so KDE code doesn't have to care about it. The person you're replying to never implied X11 wasn't involved, just that it was abstracted away.

[sprash]

> Wayland has some widely-respected values around who gets to introspect what state and who acts as authority

And this is a main problem. These "widely-respected values" (by whom actually?) make sure that you can't implement an app that allows dragging tabs from one window to another because windows are not allowed to know their absolute coordinates.

> But there's a lot of value in agreed-upon protocols, and X11 also needed many of them.

Depends on the protocol. Wayland as such has zero value. I still can't decide that is designed by retarded morons ore geniuses as means of sabotage. Either way it destroys the FOSS ecosystem very effectively. Good job!

[sho_hn]

> These "widely-respected values" (by whom actually?) make sure that you can't implement an app that allows dragging tabs from one window to another because windows are not allowed to know their absolute coordinates.

I don't understand why they would need to for a DND operation (or why a custom protocol would be needed - X11 didn't need one for the same use case either).

> Wayland as such has zero value. I still can't decide that is designed by retarded morons ore geniuses as means of sabotage. Either way it destroys the FOSS ecosystem very effectively. Good job!

This comes across as very irate and emotional. I'm glad you care about the FOSS ecosystem this deeply. I do as well, and have spent 20 years of my career working on making it succeed. I'd rather we don't presume malice in each other.

[sprash]

> I'm glad you care about the FOSS ecosystem this deeply. I do as well

As member of KDE e.V. board of directors you were part of the cancel brigade against Richard Stallman which was clearly an OP against FOSS. This means you are either some useful idiot or an actively malicious actor. Either way it would be great if people like you would stop "caring" about the FOSS ecosystem.