[dlg]

There was a version of streptococcus mutans developed that didn’t produce tons of lactic acid and would have pretty much ended tooth decay back in 2000. Iirc, it was built to outcompete the regular bacteria too. As far as I can tell there’s been no progress in commercializing this-—I assume because of the cost and complexity of FDA approval.

E.g., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12369203/

[tyre]

Looks like that research led the lead author to found a company[0] and develop a probiotic tablet[1]. Seems like it could be worth trying.

[0]: https://www.dentistryiq.com/dentistry/oral-systemic-health/a...

[1]: https://probiorahealth.com/

[darkclouds]

[1]: https://probiorahealth.com/ resolves to google, yet it shows in google results, so dont know if the HN hug of death has forced this change.

Last scan by the wayback machine.

https://web.archive.org/web/20230628125533/https://probiorah...

[Obscurity4340]

No way?! Great find, dude. I wonder if anyone can comment about it specifically or if it might be worthwhile to start a thread soliciting users experience...

[lisper]

I've never tried it but I see cause for skepticism: the claim is that these beneficial bacteria will out-compete the harmful ones. But if that's true, why would it take 30 days for them to get established? One shot of Listerine to kill what's there now, then one batch of the good critters to get them started, and, if the claims are true, you should be set for life, right? So something doesn't add up.

[Obscurity4340]

Doesn't your body have a reservoir of your microbiome throughout your body (like in the appendix or whatever)? Is it that far-out that some of the mouth stuff makes it there as well? Keep in mind, these bacteria have probably adapted and co-evolved over our development as a species, they must be fairly hardy and well-positioned

Not qualified to argue with your very logical position here but I feel like it might be a longer-term transition and there might still be hold-outs if its only a one-and-done deal like you've described.

Mea culpa tho, I definitely want to believe

[lisper]

> I definitely want to believe

Me too. Nothing would make me happier than for someone to show me why I'm wrong here.

[Obscurity4340]

It totally makes sense as a real-life conspiracy theory too, although I'm not super familiar with the ADA's exploits. Obviously, dentists have an enormous amount to lose if something like this ever escaped the laboratory, so to speak.

[rdedev]

It could be the case that these specific strain of good bacteria does not last long enough in the mouth for some reason. For example they could mutate or they might not have the capability to attach itself to the tooth surface for long enough.

In their website they claim that within 30 days the good bacteria will outcompetes the bad one. I don't think you can stop taking the tablets after those 30 days completely to keep tits benefits. Those bacteria might die down over a course of a few months for various reasons.

[lisper]

What do you think "outcompete" means in the context of evolutionary biology? Something is going to set up shop in your mouth; it's just too attractive an environment to be left fallow. Whatever that ends up being without intervention has by definition outcompeted all the other contenders. So if the good bacteria don't persist, then by definition they have not "outcompeted" the competition.

[rdedev]

Guess the main point is the environment itself changes depending on what you do and what you eat. So you need to constantly resupply the initial good bacteria for them to keep holding on

[Obscurity4340]

Is there any reason you can't just propogate and cultivate them in a seperate breeding receptacle for an unlimited supply like people do with SCOBY or whatever for making sourdough?

[darkclouds]

Zinc starves bacteria via a variety of means, and a high zinc intake will see high levels of zinc in the saliva and in the teeth, helping to keep bacterial levels down, but RDA's are highly conservative amounts for young healthy people, not old or ill people, which then makes some RDA's woefully inadequate.

Very few products kill 100% of bacteria, even deionised water will still have less than 25 colony forming bacteria per litre in it, although by virtue of being deionised has less in it to help bacteria get established. Acidifying water will make it harder for pseudomonas to get established. But when scientists say they are searching for life on mars or an asteroid, they are referring to bacteria, mainly the bacillus aka rod shaped bacteria as it can survive in radiation 100,000 times more than humans can survive in, and extreme cold like space, so global warming and melting ice at the poles presents new viral and bacterial risks.

Diet can also reduce the body's own immune response, for example calcium disodium ethylene diamine tetra-acetate aka Calcium disodium EDTA found in a variety of products from makeup to food like Mayonnaise chelates zinc reducing zinc's ability to activate GPR39.

Zinc's inability from deficiency or chemicals like the one mentioned above, from being able to activate GPR39, creates a myriad of problems in human health, including reducing saliva production. [1]

There isnt anything wrong with using bacteria to out compete other bacteria, but adaptions occur.

Phages are viruses that kill bacteria, something the Russians developed decades ago as the West when with antibiotics[2]. I would also consider Georgia as a medical destination for some conditions as they are superior to Western options. Some of their doctors do scoff at the Western doctors!

You can find millions if not billions of phages in just 1ml of seawater [3]. The problem with phages is they take time to develop, so you could be dead before the bacterial strain is identified and a phage is developed, so antibiotics are the fastest immediate response, but the gold standard is antibiotics until the phages have been developed and then used as a part of a treatment program, but you'll only get this from very expensive private healthcare.

Of course drinking seawater when one goes surfing is a bit of pot luck, or lucky dip with regards to consuming phages. It makes me wonder if Surfers Against Sewage know about phages. [4]

So lots of different ways to tackle health problems, but medical experts cant always use them due to cost or simply lack of knowledge.

[1] https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/22/8/3872

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6203130/

[3] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210115-the-viruses-that....

[4] https://www.sas.org.uk/

[Obscurity4340]

I've always had this idea for something you could put on your teeth before you start eating like those trays people use for whitening but obviously more robust. I wonder why nobody has ever pursued this angle, stop the food from ever touching your teeth in the first place. I'm sure someone will be able to shoot this down in 3 seconds but I fail to see why one couldn't simply create a flexible barrier to prevent all these problems. Sort of like a dental dam for eating

[jboogie77]

I’ve had this same thought for years haha. Something like a thin dental guard

[clumsysmurf]

There are a few of these kinds of products, I wonder how they compare

https://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/item02120...

[TheHumanist]

I wonder if there is anything more to the reason that it has never gained any real traction? A lot of groups would stand to lose a lot of money if something like this become used by even half the population. This would mean a massive reduction in purchases of many dental products, visits to dentists, procedures needed by dentists, etc.

[isoprophlex]

How'd you call this lactic acid promoting cartel? Big Toothpaste? Big Plaque? Big Teeth?

[maximinus_thrax]

You're trying to make a joke here, but please do some reasearch about the dental lobbying groups. The ADA is no joke.

What OP is implying is not really tinfoil hat material. As one example, one of the reasons parroted (by democrats, actually) that we won't have universal healthcare ever, is that it's going to cause thousands of health insurance jobs to dissapear.

[beebmam]

Then why doesn't a country with a nationalized health care system do it? There are incentives in other countries that would encourage this, if it were possible.

[maximinus_thrax]

My nationalized healthcare comment is unlreated to the existence of the dental industry in its current form. It was just an example to point out that protecting jobs is something our elected leaders are worried about when lobbyists are paying up (they're not really that worried about jobs dissapearing due to automation or mergers or monolopies, etc..)

Regardless of the type of healthcare (nationalized, private, etc..) the dental health industry is still getting paid, the only diffference is who is doing it. The original statement was that a breakthrough in preventive medicine will destroy a large portion of the bread and butter of the dental health industry, which will lead to it being only a fraction of what it is today. Industries fight tooth and nail to keep growing. Guess what they do when their existence is threatened.

[zaat]

> Regardless of the type of healthcare (nationalized, private, etc..) the dental health industry is still getting paid, the only diffference is who is doing it.

No, one difference is who is doing it, another one is the sums being payed. That's why the dental industry in countries with national health care fight to stay out of the general health system. The lucrative compensation of the practitioners lead people to want to go specifically for that. If it were part of national health care it would cease to be sure path to accumulating loads of money, the incentive to become a dentist as well as the power of current practitioner will be similar to that of family doctors or orthopedic specialist. Spoiler alert: in countries with national health care their status is higher then the status of teachers in national school systems, but not by much.

[zaat]

I'm not saying there isn't such a country, but the countries with national health care that I know about don't or don't fully cover dental health (presumably because one can live in perfect health with a rotting mouth and not due to a strong dental healthcare lobby /s).

[peteradio]

How oh how did our ancestors survive without the dental lobby!? How did the children with their rotten ass teeth consume all their goodies and sodie pops with such poorly functioning teeth!? Its a complete mystery, one I'm sure is lost to the sands of the 1950s.

[TheHumanist]

I appreciate your response. I almost didn't even make the original comment because I knew I would get 'conspiracy nut' responses, as I did lol I promise, I'm the furthest from a conspiracy nut.

[bsder]

You think that the governments of the world with much poorer people wouldn't jump on something like this? Improving dental health dramatically improves outcomes all across the board.

If something works, someone, somewhere in the world would start using it. Hell, people are willing to use stuff that is flat out harmful simply because some people on the internet said so.

The big issue with bio things is that the human organism has a lot of variation and a lot of cures sorta work for some people some of the time. Consequently, a high enough bar to get FDA clearance has to be significantly strong.

(Two good recent examples: A woman died from oxalate overload from drinking green smoothies and Vitamin C and anti-oxidants can spur cancer growth. Does that mean that everybody should stop drinking green smoothies and taking Vitamin C? Obviously no. But it shows that humans vary and that things aren't always straightforward.)

[Finnucane]

What's more likely, vast cabal conspiring against competing product, or competing product just doesn't work as well as claimed? There aren't nearly as many grand conspiracies out there as there should be.

[amelius]

> it was built to outcompete the regular bacteria too

What if it invades the gut?

[piuantiderp]

Very different conditions

[0cf8612b2e1e]

My naïve thought, assuming it was effective, could outcompete acid spewing species, and you had dosed a handful of the population: why would it not have been able to spread through the population?

Inoculated person X kisses two people, they go on to kiss two people, etc. Probably too simple a model, but I assume that kissing spreads all manner of microorganisms. How much do you need for the bacteria to take hold?