[lisper]

I've never tried it but I see cause for skepticism: the claim is that these beneficial bacteria will out-compete the harmful ones. But if that's true, why would it take 30 days for them to get established? One shot of Listerine to kill what's there now, then one batch of the good critters to get them started, and, if the claims are true, you should be set for life, right? So something doesn't add up.

[Obscurity4340]

Doesn't your body have a reservoir of your microbiome throughout your body (like in the appendix or whatever)? Is it that far-out that some of the mouth stuff makes it there as well? Keep in mind, these bacteria have probably adapted and co-evolved over our development as a species, they must be fairly hardy and well-positioned

Not qualified to argue with your very logical position here but I feel like it might be a longer-term transition and there might still be hold-outs if its only a one-and-done deal like you've described.

Mea culpa tho, I definitely want to believe

[lisper]

> I definitely want to believe

Me too. Nothing would make me happier than for someone to show me why I'm wrong here.

[Obscurity4340]

It totally makes sense as a real-life conspiracy theory too, although I'm not super familiar with the ADA's exploits. Obviously, dentists have an enormous amount to lose if something like this ever escaped the laboratory, so to speak.

[lisper]

That's true, but if it really were the case that you could stop cavities and gum disease by popping a pill that was already on the market I don't see any way they could stop it. I also think that there are a few ADA members who actually care about people's dental health, and if they thought that there was a conspiracy to suppress such a thing, they would have said so.

Like I said, nothing would make me happier than to be proven wrong about this. But right now my money is on the things-that-sound-too-good-to-be-true-usually-are theory.

[rdedev]

It could be the case that these specific strain of good bacteria does not last long enough in the mouth for some reason. For example they could mutate or they might not have the capability to attach itself to the tooth surface for long enough.

In their website they claim that within 30 days the good bacteria will outcompetes the bad one. I don't think you can stop taking the tablets after those 30 days completely to keep tits benefits. Those bacteria might die down over a course of a few months for various reasons.

[lisper]

What do you think "outcompete" means in the context of evolutionary biology? Something is going to set up shop in your mouth; it's just too attractive an environment to be left fallow. Whatever that ends up being without intervention has by definition outcompeted all the other contenders. So if the good bacteria don't persist, then by definition they have not "outcompeted" the competition.

[rdedev]

Guess the main point is the environment itself changes depending on what you do and what you eat. So you need to constantly resupply the initial good bacteria for them to keep holding on

[lisper]

> you need to constantly resupply the initial good bacteria for them to keep holding on

Then unless your mouth ends up bacteria-free, the good bacteria are by definition not out-competing the bad ones.

[Obscurity4340]

Is there any reason you can't just propogate and cultivate them in a seperate breeding receptacle for an unlimited supply like people do with SCOBY or whatever for making sourdough and kombucha?

[Obscurity4340]

Is there any reason you can't just propogate and cultivate them in a seperate breeding receptacle for an unlimited supply like people do with SCOBY or whatever for making sourdough?

[darkclouds]

Zinc starves bacteria via a variety of means, and a high zinc intake will see high levels of zinc in the saliva and in the teeth, helping to keep bacterial levels down, but RDA's are highly conservative amounts for young healthy people, not old or ill people, which then makes some RDA's woefully inadequate.

Very few products kill 100% of bacteria, even deionised water will still have less than 25 colony forming bacteria per litre in it, although by virtue of being deionised has less in it to help bacteria get established. Acidifying water will make it harder for pseudomonas to get established. But when scientists say they are searching for life on mars or an asteroid, they are referring to bacteria, mainly the bacillus aka rod shaped bacteria as it can survive in radiation 100,000 times more than humans can survive in, and extreme cold like space, so global warming and melting ice at the poles presents new viral and bacterial risks.

Diet can also reduce the body's own immune response, for example calcium disodium ethylene diamine tetra-acetate aka Calcium disodium EDTA found in a variety of products from makeup to food like Mayonnaise chelates zinc reducing zinc's ability to activate GPR39.

Zinc's inability from deficiency or chemicals like the one mentioned above, from being able to activate GPR39, creates a myriad of problems in human health, including reducing saliva production. [1]

There isnt anything wrong with using bacteria to out compete other bacteria, but adaptions occur.

Phages are viruses that kill bacteria, something the Russians developed decades ago as the West when with antibiotics[2]. I would also consider Georgia as a medical destination for some conditions as they are superior to Western options. Some of their doctors do scoff at the Western doctors!

You can find millions if not billions of phages in just 1ml of seawater [3]. The problem with phages is they take time to develop, so you could be dead before the bacterial strain is identified and a phage is developed, so antibiotics are the fastest immediate response, but the gold standard is antibiotics until the phages have been developed and then used as a part of a treatment program, but you'll only get this from very expensive private healthcare.

Of course drinking seawater when one goes surfing is a bit of pot luck, or lucky dip with regards to consuming phages. It makes me wonder if Surfers Against Sewage know about phages. [4]

So lots of different ways to tackle health problems, but medical experts cant always use them due to cost or simply lack of knowledge.

[1] https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/22/8/3872

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6203130/

[3] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210115-the-viruses-that....

[4] https://www.sas.org.uk/