[catlover76]

I am using Linux rn because my Windows computer is busted. On Windows, I was using WSL for development. It was amazing to have a good dev environment as well as a real computer at the same time!

I can't even use my large MSI 1440p monitor with this computer because Linux (also perhaps because of the actual gfx card too, to be fair). I had to manually install Discord's update yesterday and now there are 2 Discord apps on my computer because Linux (and only one works).

[kaliszad]

From the thread it seems you are on Ubuntu. There are basically two package managers out of the box. One, the traditional combo of dpkg + apt on top is deeply embedded into the system. You can install a Discord .deb package using `$ sudo dpkg -i ~/Downlaods/discord-0.0.28.deb` or whatever because it is not in the operating system's repositories. If it was, it would be `$ sudo apt install discord` or something along those lines.

The Snap packaging system also includes a layer of software that can sandbox the packages it installed. The idea is, a single package is less distro-specific and also is limited in the damage it can do. Ubuntu is the main user of Snap. Many other distributions, especially Fedora and the like seem to lean more towards Flatpak, which is a different take on what Snap does. Yes, it is complicated but the idea is to increase the security and portability of software packages for Linux. To manage Snap packages from the command line, you can use the snap command.

[catlover76]

Yeah, I think I may have got the second installation working via the sudo dpkg route, but I'm not sure. I know I definitely tried it as part of troubleshooting the issue. If that is what I did to eventually get Discord working again, then it's strange that I now have two installations, because the download of the .deb file is what the Discord client wanted me to do in the first place.

That being said, I probably initially installed it via Snap--but then, shouldn't it have auto-updated? Yet the Snap store version is still stuck on v 0.28, and the Discord client is what insisted I download the .deb for 0.29. :shrug:

I do not think either of the above routes is too onerous or complicated, but I think the situation is made more complicated by the multiple options. If I am understanding things correctly, APT is a third option in addition to Snap and downloading .deb directly--actually, there is a fourth, which is a variety of things we can lump together under "execute an an installation script"

[kaliszad]

Apt is the default thing that manages dpkg for you, does dependency resolution, etc. dpkg is quite low level actually. Snap and Flatpak and others are en vogue now, they are basically more app-storey approach to application installation, permissions and more. So apt/ dpkg or if you are on Fedora dnf/yum/rpm are the traditional approaches and Snap/ Flatpak is a very different approach altogether.

I would probably just deinstall the Discord from Snap and keep using the .deb/ dpkg approach.

[xerox13ster]

Fam, you probably installed Discord through the package manager or the AUR and then when it said there was an update you said "I'll figure it out" and downloaded the tarball that option offers and built it.

you should remove them by doing `sudo pacman -Rns discord` followed by trying yay -R discord.

Then install it from either the AUR with yay or Arch repo with pacman.

[catlover76]

I don't remember how I first installed it, but for the update, I downloaded the .deb file they offered by default, couldn't do anything with it. Don't remember how I solved the problem.

Edit: actually, I think I installed it via Snap Store. And the current Snap Store version is .28, but the new update is .29. So the .28 client is just in a loop of "there is a new update and I am out of date, so now I am just a modal that downloads the packages at these URLs". Not sure where my other installation came from, if I somehow did a fresh install or what.

I don't really get why there isn't just one obvious reliable and centralized way to install software on this thing. My Slack, VSCode, and other apps auto-update without my having to manually do anything, which, IMO, is how it should be by default.

I'm on Ubuntu--is there benefit to using Pacman on there? My understanding is that people do.

[graemep]

> I don't really get why there isn't just one obvious reliable and centralized way to install software on this thing. My Slack, VSCode, and other apps auto-update without my having to manually do anything, which, IMO, is how it should be by default.

The shame is Linux used to have this, and old fashioned and geeky distributions still do. In fact it used be be on of the big advantages of Linux over Windows and OS X. You installed everything from the repos, everything auto updated from the repos.

[Tijdreiziger]

> I don't really get why there isn't just one obvious reliable and centralized way to install software on this thing.

To be fair — there isn’t that on any desktop OS.

[catlover76]

Yeah I know, I'm kind of expecting more from Linux in that respect.

But I'm also just genuinely wondering if people more experienced in software engineering would agree that it is better, ideally, to have one clear, right way of installing software.

[jcelerier]

I don't think there is anything in life for which "one clear, right way" ever works.

For software at least I have very different requirements for

- the kernel on my work machine, coreutils, base system, etc (I want system updates and good stability and one single version installed on my system in a central location, can be read-only)

- development toolchains (I want multiple versions side by side in standard folders, e.g. multiple ABIs, cross toolchains, etc.)

- productivity apps (calendar, mail, etc). (I want one version in a central location with possibility of rollback)

- end-user apps, video, drawing & music apps, etc. (I want multiple version side by side installed in local folders as a very basic practice when doing some artistic work in a computer is to pin the artwork to a specific version of the software)

[teo_zero]

I must be missing your point. Isn't Apt the one clear right way to install on Debian derivatives?

[happymellon]

They are on Ubuntu, and Apt gets overriden by Snap.

That's of course if it's available via snap, it might only be supported via Flatpak.

[catlover76]

Yeah, as the other poster said, there are actually a couple alternative methods of installation, most notably the Snap store.

I think I should probably stick to installing via apt wherever possible.

[midoridensha]

>I can't even use my large MSI 1440p monitor with this computer because Linux (also perhaps because of the actual gfx card too, to be fair)

This part makes no sense. Linux works with any monitor; monitors connect via DP/HDMI and don't need device drivers. I have two 1440p monitors on my system. If you're having a problem here, it's undoubtedly the graphics card, and Linux has long had issues with drivers there (mainly Nvidia), but even here most Nvidia users say it works fine for them.

[aforwardslash]

My experience with 1440p monitors on linux is terrible, and I'm being generous.

Starting with the obvious, dpi detection is mostly non-existing and it seems the default text subhinting configurations aren't actually good for high dpi monitors - so you either get shitty fonts and graphics with good screen real estate or FHD experience with acceptable quality. And then you have to choose - do you want color management or different dpi settings per monitor? Because you can't have both - Wayland doesn't seem to have proper color management yet, and X/Xorg doesn't have different scaling settings per monitor.

Did I mention Wayland supports different dpi settings per monitor? Well sometimes it gets confused, and doesn't work well. Getting my kubuntu (I know, running kde doesn't help) to work with both my FHD and QHD monitor in an acceptable dpi setting took several hours, and forced me to switch from XOrg to wayland. Now instead of a robust desktop, I have a machine that needs to be rebooted every week because it starts forgetting to update screen regions - imagine a youtube video playing, but you only see the first frame.

[midoridensha]

I definitely do not recommend mixing monitor resolutions; I tried that on my work PC and it was a disaster. So for both work and home, I have dual 27" monitors with the same resolution (4k at work, QHD at home). The one at home works fine, but the one at work needed manual setting of the DPI, so there do seem to be problems with DPI detection as you say.

[kaliszad]

Seems to work ok for me with a 16:10 Lenovo T14 Gen3, which is 1920x1200 connected using a Thunderbolt Docking station to a LG 43" 4K screen and a portrait 1200x1920 Dell 24" display. All of that with Debian 12 and Gnome. Yes, there is no scaling in this configuration. With my previous T470 I used a 27" 4K screen for some time in otherwise the same configuration with 1.5x scaling. I had to turn some Gnome setting on to make it available but it worked. I am on Wayland since at least 4-5 years back. The setup was a bit funky those 4-5 years back, sometimes it wouldn't come back up after suspend/ resume with the same configuration or when hot-plugging the docking station. But that is mostly a thing of the past and the setup overall is quite stable.

I still think the best experience was during the Dell Latitude E6420/E6430 days when used with the proprietary docking station. That worked every single time even when I, at that time experimented with XMonad. Yes, I haven't used fractional scaling then and the laptops were much bulkier (however also completely quiet when idling, which isn't the case with the Lenovos). Good times.

Overall, I am very happy with the setup and Debian is giving me no unwanted surprises even when I used Debian Testing over the almost 10 years now. My tasks and interests don't seem to require using Windows or macOS in a way I couldn't work around. That definitely helps but I also really feel that the operating system does not bother me and I can get my work done. I also don't suffer from all the things I remember when using Windows or still to this day seeing other people use it. Even a clean installation of Windows on proper hardware like the Thinkpad T470 with just Intel components is "an experience". The touchpad does not work nearly as well as on Linux out of the box. When you install the official drivers for that there is a Window with some inexplicable error with no useful information popping up. And having an uptime of more than 30 days on Windows personal computers seems to be pushing the envelope nowadays. I am not an uptime masochist but rebooting really isn't something that bothers me on Linux, I do it occasionally for a newer kernel when it suits me.

[redeeman]

> I can't even use my large MSI 1440p monitor with this computer because Linux

ridiculous, Is it also fords fault I cant use an f150 because I live on a mountain without roads? You may have purchased hardware that has explicitly chosen to make life difficult for anything but windows, that is hardly "because linux". Nobody is even asking THEM to make drivers, which allthough would be nice, everyone would settle for "tell us how to use the hardware", or at best "dont actively prevent us from making drivers".

And why can you not use the monitor?

Your discord problems are almost certainly caused by you doing it wrong. Linux is not a magic solver of problems, you know your way around windows, but if you invested same time into learning linux as you did windows, you'd know how to do things there aswell.

[catlover76]

I think this comment exemplifies the attitude that leads Linux to be this mostly niche thing that even most devs don't want to deal with.

> Your discord problems are almost certainly caused by you doing it wrong. Linux is not a magic solver of problems, you know your way around windows, but if you invested same time into learning linux as you did windows, you'd know how to do things there aswell.

No bro, it requires zero investment of time to "know your way around windows" for basic stuff like installing consumer programs--that's the thing. Not sure how you're missing that. I don't think I've ever installed anything incorrectly on Windows. I'm not sure that's even possible.

The issue is not that I expect Linux to be a "magic solver of problems"--it's that there are a lot of problems it has which are ridiculous in the first place and don't exist on other operating systems.

[redeeman]

> No bro, it requires zero investment of time to "know your way around windows" for basic stuff like installing consumer programs--that's the thing. Not sure how you're missing that. I don't think I've ever installed anything incorrectly on Windows. I'm not sure that's even possible.

hmm, is that why theres SOOOO much stuff around "customer support"?

its funny how the "issues" affecting linux (mostly that it isnt EXACTLY like what they're used to, windows) is a huge blocker issue, but windows gets a free pass for everything.

Linux isnt ready for the desktop because of tiny things, but windows is, despite issues unimaginably bigger.

hell, when people mostly said "linux isnt ready for the desktop" in the early 2000s, windows was unable to be installed on modern computers without custom creating a floppy disk with drivers for your sata drive. Yet somehow it was ready for the desktop.

[testrun]

Cannot agree more. Using linux since Slackware in the '90s but still now and again Linux for everyday use can be so frustrating. Currently using Ubuntu 22.10, because 23.04 has a problem with multiple window management. But 22.10 on my PC have mono sound, but it is stereo on 23.04. Stream works fantastic on 23.04, but I have problems login in to some games on 22.10. Having problems using Cuda on 23.04 but it works 100% on 22.10, and on and on it goes. Did go back to 22.04, but there were other problems then, so decided 22.10 will be it for now. As so many people said before, Linux is 95% there, it is just the last 5% that is so frustrating.

[catlover76]

Yeah

How is gaming on Linux? What do you play?

[Raineer]

I was commenting on this just last week. Gaming on Linux has exploded since the Steam Deck was released (just as all Linux users were hoping it would).

All the effort which went into Proton to get games working on Steam Deck has done wonders for the desktop.

It used to be that you could play AAA games up to about 2 years prior (same story like macOS today), but now you can play almost anything on desktop Linux. I even run HiDPI / 5K monitor and it all works now, at least on Arch.

The only notable exception (truly, a surprise), at the moment, is Starfield not working on day 1. This was surprising, but the reasons net down to GPU drivers - and progress is already being made.

[catlover76]

Nice!

Yeah I downloaded Steam on here to try it, but my hardware isn't up to the task. Seems like it worked well from a software perspective though!

[happymellon]

I'm playing Horizon Zero Dawn right now.

Works great on Linux, as do the hundreds of other games I've played.

[catlover76]

Great to hear!

[testrun]

World of Warships mostly, War Thunder and Company of Heroes 3