[nhance]

I've got a 2018 Jeep Grand Cherokee and I've been searching for where the sim card is for the built in cellular modem so I can rip it out.

It astounds me that there aren't more people interested in cutting off the constant telemetry and to be honest it wouldn't surprise me if the car refuses to operate correctly when I do figure out where it's at and pull it.

[pgeorgi]

> it wouldn't surprise me if the car refuses to operate correctly

I know of a car (Renault in EU) whose SIM access is broken somehow that still works fine, just can't call home. No guarantee that every car will handle it gracefully, but at least some regions don't seem to mandate any enforcement if that module happens to "break".

[joezydeco]

You'd probably have more success finding the external antenna and clipping the leads at the sharkfin.

[b112]

Just make sure you do something, like use a resistor to ground the antenna lead, because I did that, and would still get connectivity at times.

EG if the cell tower was very close.

Was fine after I used a resistor to turn that power into mild heat.

[joezydeco]

I wonder if one could build a metal cap, shape and color matched to the sharkfin, that goes over the antenna and couples to the roof of the car. Would that be enough to make a small Faraday cage over the antenna? Would leakage though the mounting hole still be enough to let a signal through?

[ragnese]

I've tried stuff like that before on other things and haven't been very successful. Those damn EM waves really like to find their way through.

[brian-armstrong]

I don't think you really need to get that sophisticated. If you unplug the antenna and send too much current down that antenna line, whatever's on the other side is not going to like it.

[r0b1n]

You could maybe just stuff the inside of the sharkfin full of tinfoil.

[TheLoafOfBread]

If it is similar to eCall in VAG ECUs, then there might be internal antenna inside the ECU itself.

[flangola7]

What the fuck

[b112]

This would really suck.

[Sander_Marechal]

There probably isn't a physical SIM card anymore. It probably just has an eSIM.

[ben-schaaf]

Just gotta break out the soldering iron then.

[yardie]

In 2018? I doubt car manufacturers can move that fast. Apple didn't implement eSIM until 2018 for the iPhone XS. No way an auto maker has it before consumer electronics maker.

[glogla]

Given the Wikipedia page about eSIM says:

The European Commission selected the eUICC format for its in-vehicle emergency call service, known as eCall, in 2012.[23] All new car models in the EU must have one by 2018 to instantly connect the car to emergency services in case of an accident.[24]

I'd say they have been around since then.

edit: here is a great talk about how eSIMs work from last CCC https://media.ccc.de/v/camp2023-57190-demystifying_esim_tech...

[yardie]

For a very long time now you have never needed a SIM to call emergency services. Maybe it's different in the EU but US car models that include telematics (ie Onstar) have been able to call emergency services without a subscription.

[codedokode]

Shouldn't emergency services be accessible without a SIM? On the other hand, using a SIM allows government to track car's movement.

[hedora]

The cell modem has a separate unique identifier, so the government should be able to track sim-free devices.

[mindslight]

I feel like if this were happening 20 years ago, common wisdom would develop to buy from a list of model of cars where people had already blazed the path, directions of what the cell modem looks like and how to unplug it, prominent links to a community working on a libre replacement, and majority opinion of this is just what you should do to cope in the modern world. Now with the web community being so diffuse the majority opinion basically seems to be "whatevs". Perhaps if you dug into the right threads on the right manufacturer-specific forum you could find a thread or two with some investigation, but that's about it. It's also essentially impossible to navigate/compare the amenability of different makes to this.

FWIW I've got no actual experience, but given the general slowness with which the car industry moves I would guess the cell modem is just a module hanging off one of the CAN buses, receiving telemetry broadcast by other modules and injecting/interrogating commands when requested (like modern OBD2 ports). I suppose it could also be part of something like the gauge cluster that links different buses as well (at least on Hondas) but with the modular way cars seem to work I'd guess it's not likely.

I'd try to track down a copy of the factory service manual for your model. Those have seem to have gotten pretty thin these days too in favor of computer-based documentation, but it should at least help you work out how things are generally connected. (No point to the readily-available Haynes manual though. Those are apparently garbage)

[noman-land]

Check out the manual, find where the fuse is for the cellular modem, and remove it.

[orev]

That’s quite a big assumption to think that it would be clearly labeled, and also that it would have a dedicated fuse. It’s not like that would be such a huge power draw that it needs its own fuse. Pulling the fuse would likely cause the whole infotainment system to go down.

[noman-land]

Reading back at my reply, I didn't mean it to sound so authoritative. Just an idea.

I helped a friend do this a couple years ago in a fairly modern car. It most certainly was not clearly labeled, but there were clues that led us to try it out. It indeed disabled more than just the cellular modem but the goal was to disable all "smart" features altogether, along with anything that collects telemetry or phones home. After monitoring how it affected the car, the mild trade-offs were deemed worth it.

[bityard]

There's more than a fair chance that the modem is built into or fused along with the entertainment systems.

[noman-land]

There's also more than a fair chance it isn't :).

[vorpalhex]

There's often times a small cellular modem in the sharkfin on vehicles but I believe Jeeps still have whip antennas.

Could use an SDR or emf reader. It'll take a while since you need to catch a cellular keep alive but otherwise should be fine.

[wil421]

Removing the head unit and unplugging the “Bordeaux” and violet wire[1] may help and be easier to do. It’s the LTE and 3G antennae wire.

I have a 2019 Grand Cherokee and I think we both have the updated head unit. Let me know if anything works.

[1] https://www.jeepgarage.org/threads/uaq-antenna-connections.2...

[grecy]

My 2021 Wrangler has a very obvious antenna on top of the roll bar, very easy to unplug. (There's actually two - one for SIM stuff, and one for the XM Sat radio)

[vuln]

It’s an eSim. Not a physical SIM card afaik.

[monkpit]

Do you have a source for this?

[vuln]

Google. I’ve searched and searched. I have a 2018 Truck from a different manufacturer and I completely went down the rabbit hole of attempting to remove it. It’s not possible. It’s an assumption that most manufacturers are following the same logic due to economy of scale.

[swader999]

There's likely five Sims at various places and even 3d printed into the frame.

[delecti]

They're eSIM these days, so it's actually zero physical SIM cards.

[catchnear4321]

overwhelm the brain with input. to hold onto threads like this one, you have to be fairly healthy or fairly mad.

not strapping on tin foil hat, this likely isn’t some massive coordinated effort. it could be done “better.”

this is just making the most of the situation. at scale.

if you simplify the question, “Who wants to let their car manufacturer surveil them?” - the answer is also simple. very few hands are going to be raised.

most people don’t get the tl;dr - they drown in the firehose.

what isn’t out there is a friendly, accessible version of what you’re looking for - multi-manufacturer information on snipping the sensors, why and how, and what you lose in the exchange. if it is out there, it isn’t friendly enough to be readily found.

[s3p]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here.

[catchnear4321]

people are tired, stretched thin, even in the most powerful nations. information access has become so ubiquitous that it has become more challenging to filter than to find.

for many people, there are far more pressing concerns to address than if nissan knows how the back seat was used last night. they would need the time and space to slow down and consider the information, and likely have means to do something, for it to elicit a response. some people would love to have the issue, that would imply having means to get a new car. no, they wouldn’t love the issue, but it is out of reach, so it isn’t deemed worth the effort spent.

right now it’s like saying your cell phone spies on you. most people won’t be getting rid of their phones. some might get foil bags.

faraday cage around your car, on the other hand, isn’t happening.

[ranger_danger]

None of that matters when the info is either routinely sold to others with more time and motivation on their hands, or simply leaked to the public whether on purpose or not.

[catchnear4321]

how are they contradictory?

[throw3747874747]

I am pretty sure that is (or soon will be) illegal in EU. Car needs to be able to call emergency, if accident is detected.

[loloquwowndueo]

The manufacturer may have to legally include the functionality in cars they sell but in pretty sure the owner isn’t obligated to use or keep the functionality untouched.

By comparison if your seat belts are all frayed and you don’t wear them anyway that’s on you, manufacturer sold you a car with seat belts in good condition and that as far as the “compliance” requirement goes.

[tpmoney]

Might depend on the wording of the law and how that system is tied into the rest of the car. For example in the states, it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car. This is mostly about making sure emissions testing via OBD II can’t be gamed, but it also would target modifications like “rolling coal” or turbos and superchargers that allow user controlled fuel mapping. But in the crossfire it catches completely reasonable reasons to modify your emissions system like a flex fuel upgrade, or replacing the computer of your old car with an aftermarket one because the engine immobilizer unit died and they’re paired together and OEM computers and immobilizer kits are either too expensive or not obtainable anymore.

Laws against tampering with vehicle safety devices would easily have a similar effect on your built in phone home systems.

[jibe]

it is illegal to tamper with any part of the emissions control system on your car.

Can you cite the law? I know the EPA has civilly pursues companies that make products that bypass emission controls. But haven’t seen or heard anything that goes as fat as you suggest.

E.g.: https://www.dinancars.com/products/software-tuning/engine-tu...

This allows you to change the engine programming on a BMW. They do note it is not legal in California.

[LeifCarrotson]

Title 2 of the Clean Air Act "authorizes the EPA to set standards applicable to emissions... the CAA prohibits tampering with emissions controls, as well as manufacturing, selling, and installing aftermarket devices intended to defeat those controls."

They just got a $10M civil judgement against a couple "diesel tuners" here in Michigan:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/united-states-awards-10-milli...

https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/national-enforcement-and-com...

but yeah, this is civil action against vendors, not anything that police will fine people for on the side of the road.

[tpmoney]

The EPA has a document here https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...

With a relevant paragraph on page 2

The site you linked mentions the carve out that the EPA has, but note that it requires both retaining or beating original behavior and requires extensive prod of that fact. A similar law affecting phone home circuits would almost certainly not find disabling the ability to phone home as in compliance.

[jibe]

The part of your post that made me curious was whether fuel mapping, or ECU swapping was illegal. It looks like it is in a grey area under Clean Air Act, but generally interpreted as legal as long as you aren't doing things to make your emissions worse.

[5555624]

"It is a crime to knowingly falsify, tamper with, render inaccurate, or fail to install any "monitoring device or method" required under the Clean Air Act, including a vehicle’s on-board diagnostic system. Clean Air Act section 113(c)(2)(C)." https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-12/documents/ta...

[jibe]

EPA defines tampering here:

Tampering. You may not remove or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in engines/equipment in compliance with the regulations prior to its sale and delivery to the ultimate purchaser.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/part-1068/section-1068...

It seems primarily about bypassing or disabling emission controls, not user controlled fuel mapping, or mods like putting in a performance air filter or exhaust. But EPA does consider a flex fuel conversion tampering.

https://afdc.energy.gov/bulletins/technology_bulletin_0807.h...

[flir]

Frayed seatbelts won't pass an MOT in the UK. (Don't know about any other country).

[phpisthebest]

I have no required inspections here in the US... No Emissions, no Safety, no inspections at all

[InitialLastName]

For anyone from outside the US concerned about this: car inspection standards are state-specific. Many states have far more stringent standards.

[glogla]

Yup. Here's a fun hack - you can drive car in EU on US plates, due to international agreements. In that case, you don't have to follow local car inspection standards, but inspection standards of your home country.

Get a plate from US state that has no inspections? You need no inspections at all!

[phpisthebest]

Only 12 states require routine safety inspections.

[loloquwowndueo]

What’s an MOT? :)

[flir]

Yearly inspection to prove the roadworthiness of the vehicle. Brakes, tyres, lights, exhaust, seat belts, etc etc. Full list of checks: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mot-inspection-ch...

Cars younger than 3 years or older than 40 years ("historic vehicles") are generally exempt. If your MOT isn't up to date, your insurance is invalid.

[chongli]

Will it also be illegal to drive an old car that doesn't have this telemetry?

[justinclift]

"Oops, how did that happen..." ;)

[throw3747874747]

It is EURO5 or EURO6 emmision norm. It also handles firmware updates, reaction to Volkswagen cheating. Car needs to be online, check for latest firmware and all sort of nasty DRM.

There is also a black box, that records position and speed. It may call emergency if it detects crash. If DRM is violated, car may refuse to start, or only drive like 50 kms.

I don't have a source, but anyone should be able to find relevant articles.

[PrimeMcFly]

That's just creating a blackmarket for people that can crack the DRM without the car losing functionality.

[neurostimulant]

Wait, new cars in EU are expected to have cellular connectivity?

[TheLoafOfBread]

Yes and no. For eCall the modem will wakeup when crash signal is received, otherwise the chipset is disabled.

For Euro7 it will be necessary by design.

[PrimeMcFly]

What about the the numerous older cars that don't have that functionality?

[Ylpertnodi]

Eventually, there will be no older cars left. The 'agencies' are thinking of the future, unlike the governments (ever have done, long term).

[lost_tourist]

Is there some EU police that go around arresting people if you clip it?

[extraduder_ire]

EU "directives" require matching laws to be passed within member states, EU "regulations" apply directly to member states as written. In both cases, enforcement is up to the country you're in.

[PrimeMcFly]

It wouldn't be surprising if there was. Look at how they go around enforcing people paying a tax just to be able to use televisions they legally own.