[yreg]

I recently noticed how the public perception of Snowden changed on reddit. Years ago it was I think very positive. But with the war going on now when I see him come up, usually there are many users saying that he is a naive Russian asset and so on.

Makes me a bit sad to see.

[proudeu]

Most of comments you read on reddit are written and/or upvoted by bots. No wonder they are trying to shift the narrative to be more pro-US. Eglin Military base was some time ago biggest source of traffic on Reddit. It’s up to you what you make of that

[willis936]

>pro-US

*pro-illegal-spying

I am on the side of the US citizens, Snowden's side.

[lioeters]

It's one of those rhetorical tricks being used to manipulate public opinion, where any criticism of the status quo is branded as "un-American" and "un-patriotic". But in fact it's the other way around, we criticize and are angry because we care about the country and the values it stands for.

The sleight of hand, the sneakiness of how everything gets turned upside-down is impressive though, how quickly a hero becomes a villain, and the villains openly continue with their villainy as if it were heroic.

[datavirtue]

And the villains are responsible for propping up your 401k and cheap electric bills. Almost enough intrigue to make you giggle.

[WarOnPrivacy]

It's super small subset of humanity that have both of those.

[yreg]

> Most of comments you read on reddit are written and/or upvoted by bots

I don't think that's true yet. At least regarding the portion of comments written; I have no idea about the votes.

[93po]

There’s an important distinction here. Most of the comments you read. You being the general you. Most people will read a few dozen comments at most. These comments are overwhelmingly written by bots or inauthentic participants in subreddits like r politics. And they’re the most visible because these same groups also upvote them inauthentically

[yreg]

I just don't think that's the case yet, but we probably have no evidence one way or the other.

I don't know about /r/politics since I don't read it, but say in /r/worldnews, /r/europe, /r/ukrainewarvideoreport, /r/noncredibledefence, when I open a thread and pick ten comments at random and then take a look at their user histories I believe most are human.

[93po]

Two things happen here:

1. bot farms buy stolen/sold accounts that have human comment history

2. bot farms re-post human content and then repost human comments on that content in a huge cycle to mimic the appearance of being human

[proudeu]

I think /r/worldnews is 90% bots, judging by the repeating content and style of writing in comment section. And yes it looks like human would write.

[yreg]

>judging by the repeating content and style of writing in comment section

This is how reddit always has been.

[caskstrength]

The guy was regurgitating Russian propaganda talking points on twitter just days before the invasion and then accepted Russian citizenship after the fact. At this point considering him a Russian asset seems reasonable IMO.

[bjourne]

Isn't the big threat the US government's illegal and omnipresent spying on its own and other countries citizens, rather than what Snowden been up to lately?

[lern_too_spel]

As the article you're commenting on makes clear, there is no illegal and omnipresent spying on its own from Snowden's documents. The phone metadata collection program was the only possibly illegal US program in the leaks, and that was shut down years ago.

[caskstrength]

I'm Ukrainian, so possible Russian assets like Snowden and Greenwald, or (senile) useful idiots like Chomsky and Waters are obviously much bigger threat to me than some dude in Maryland reading my emails.

[bjourne]

Can you explain how?

[caskstrength]

Sure. Ukraine at the moment is completely dependent on its allies to support the war effort. Without their help Ukraine wouldn't hold on for long.

Recent Russian disinformation campaigns seem to be concentrated on eroding public support for Ukraine in western countries through various means and they had some success among the whole Greenwald-Taibbi-Snowden-Peterson crowd specifically and MAGA-people in general. Losing US support would put Ukraine in dire straits since I'm not sure EU/UK can provide all necessary equipment and ammunition by themselves.

[bjourne]

So let me get this straight. Since you are Ukrainian, Chomsky, Snowden, Greenwald, and others are threatening you by expressing views on the Ukraine war that diverge from the mainstream? Doesn't that sound awfully similar to George W Bush who claimed that everyone who isn't with us (the US) in the "war on terror" is against us?

[ifyoubuildit]

Does reading taibbi or thinking the snowden revelations were a good thing make someone a MAGA person? Is Taibbi running Russian disinformation campaigns?

I don't fault you for your position one bit, but this stuff seems a little conspiratorial to me. And what Peterson are you talking about?

[titzer]

You think Russian intelligence just let him have asylum (and be granted citizenship) without finding everything he knows about how the NSA operates? That'd be extremely naive to believe. Witting, willing, or not, Snowden has been extremely useful to Russia.

[yreg]

Then perhaps the US shouldn't have forced him to stay in Russia?

[titzer]

According to what I am reading on Wikipedia about the specific timeline, the US revoked his passport before he left Hong Kong. He claims he was planning to fly to Ecuador and was just going to pass through Moscow. And yet there are direct flights from Hong Kong to Ecuador.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden#Flight_from_the...

The US government is not responsible for him flying to or staying in Russia.

[93po]

The US government is responsible for its track record of completely failing to provide constitutional rights as part of its justice system to people in snowdens position, and Snowden has every right to not subject himself to a broken and corrupt system

[pseudalopex]

The Wikipedia article claimed Snowden's passport was revoked 2 days before he left Hong Kong. But the source it cited said the same day.

I found no direct flights from Hong Kong to Ecuador. And a direct flight path would enter the country he fled.

[0xDEF]

Snowden was behaving like a Russian propagandist in late 2021 and early 2022. He was repeating Russian lies that they were totally not going to invade etc.

[yreg]

For what it's worth almost everyone but US government predicted the Russians won't invade. Zelensky himself predicted there is no imminent invasion and complained that the west creates panic which is harmful to UA economy.

[denton-scratch]

This is true; and I find it hard to understand.

I mean, I can understand Zelensky talking it down; as the public face of Ukraine's government, I assume everything he says is propaganda of some kind (whether or not it's true).

But back in December, the satellite photos were showing the huge build-up of troops and armour on Ukraine's border. I didn't believe it was just an "exercise", nor did I believe it was sabre-rattling. I was convinced that an invasion was imminent.

I paid no attention to Snowden's opinion; he was a guest of the Russian government, and couldn't easily flee Russia.

[jcranmer]

> This is true; and I find it hard to understand.

It's actually not that complicated. The US intelligence services relied on high-level sources, essentially the military's plans for invasion, to come to its conclusions. European intelligence services tended to rely on low-level sources (the status of the units in question) instead. It turns out that the units were, even on the eve of the invasion, simply not ready for an invasion, and the European intelligence had sussed that out. In effect, when the US reported to the Europeans that Russia was preparing for war, the Europeans went "With what army? This one clearly ain't ready for war."

Combine those contradictory signals with the preconceptions that people had. The US intelligence had badly misfired during the Iraq War. There is a (not entirely undeserved) tendency to view the US as excessively warmongering. Putin had a (mostly undeserved) reputation of being a skillful and crafty manipulator. And Russia engaging in naked territorial aggression would require painful reassessments of 30 years of Russia policy (not least of which is the degree to which Europe depended on Russian gas). With all of that weighing against believing the US intelligence, it should be no surprise that Europeans did so.

[yreg]

I am no expert, but I too thought that they wouldn't do a full scale invasion. It seemed like a dumb move and I didn't think they would do dumb moves.

I have since learned to listen to what Pentagon has to say in this conflict, because their intelligence (and what they decide to share with the public) has proved to be on point.

[midasz]

> This is true; and I find it hard to understand.

Russia actually invading Ukraine full-on was the most irrational and self-destructive thing Putin could've done. By all measures it was and still is a terrible idea. Only if you thought Putin was a madman you could've predicted it but before the invasion that wasn't his reputation at all IMO. I think he was seen as relatively pragmatic and rational (for a thug).

[denton-scratch]

I agree that it looked like a crazy thing to do. But I'm not one of those who reaches for the word "madman" when someone does something that seems to me to be irrational.

With the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't seem so irrational to me now.

* Russia was under sanctions for the invasion of Crimea; the central bank had built up a huge stock of foreign currency, but it was only going to diminish with time.

* The Russian economy was at best stagnant, and largely powered by resource extraction.

* Ukraine was an impediment to land-traffic to Crimea (hence the need to build a bridge over the Kerch Strait), and also controlled the water supply.

* Ukraine was tooling-up.

For those reasons, delaying the invasion would have resulted in worse outcomes, the longer the delay.

As far as the justification for invading at all, you can take your pick from Russian fear of having a full NATO member on his Western border, or dreams of a restored Russian empire. I think both justifications are crazy, but dreams of a restored imperial glory are common among Russian nationalists. They can't all be madmen.

[InSteady]

I think it is astute to look at things in these terms, and avoid the lazy but quite common exercise of labeling motivations and actions you don't understand as "not understandable."

George Kennan, who came up in a recent HN post [0], has a fair bit to say on the subject. Namely, that throughout its history, Russia has been obsessed with expanding and securing its border for perfectly understandable strategic reasons. Especially regarding Ukraine and Crimea. Something along the lines of their western borders being completely open and strategically terrible to defend, thus the desire to push them out to more defensible locations. Of course you also have key routes for shipping, military bases, and oil flow in Ukraine that make it an incredibly appealing strategic objective. Kennan actually defined this mentality of western territorial expansion as an essential part of the Russian character, that it should be used as a backdrop to inform analysis of Russia 's motivations and contextualize strategic decisions (this was a key part of his analysis that ultimately lead to the whole "containment" strategy in the cold war).

It seems as though Western expansion has become completely ingrained basically to the point of a cultural imperative for any aspiring politician or political operator in Russia. Kind of like the requirement that any US politician must publicly proclaim their love of freedom and God in more or less equal measure (from what I can gather we've had exactly two openly atheist congress members, out of >11,000 members throughout history). In this way, it doesn't necessarily have to be rational in any absolute sense, it is rational in terms of national politics, beyond the point of expediency and into the territory of a binary whether or not you fit the hard requirements.

In 1992, Kennan wrote that NATO expansion towards former Soviet states in Western Europe including Ukraine, “ would be the most fateful error of American policy in the entire post-cold-war era... Such a decision may be expected to inflame the nationalistic, anti-Western and militaristic tendencies in Russian opinion; to have an adverse effect on the development of Russian democracy; to restore the atmosphere of the cold war to East-West relations; and to impel Russian foreign policy in directions decidedly not to our liking.”

He seems to have been largely ignored, not for the first in his career, up until Putin lead Russia to the annexation of Crimea. An act which seems to have taken heads of state and the international relations people by surprise, and perhaps undermined their optimistic beliefs about Putin having been coaxed into political/military partnership with the Western world (through economic incentives, international relations norms, etc). There was a lot of stock put on this idea that through economic incentives, trade agreements, and such, both Russia and China could be "brought into the fold" of neoliberalism and Western democratic principles. People were quite shocked to find out it didn't play out like a Disney movie with regards to Putin, and it's looking more and more like China isn't going to continue playing along with the tune set by the West when it is no longer in their strategic interest to do so.

Everyone from Obama to John Kerry to Angela Merkel were so perplexed over Russia's move in 2014 that their only explanations (including to each other in private, apparently) revolved around Putin being divorced from reality. However, as Henry Kissinger noted, the demonization of Putin is a stand-in for foreign policy analysis when there is nothing better at hand to guide us. So perhaps it is our lack of understanding of his real situation and objectives rather than his (of what is in both his and Russia's strategic interest) that is driving this urge to paint him as a irrational lunatic.

It seems likely that, as Kennan predicted, NATO expansion and general American/European policy caused a return of cold-war thinking and relations.. but only in the mind of Putin and Russian politicians. The rest of the world was out of step, and apparently wouldn't realize their error and catch up to reality until after that key moment in 2022, when just about everyone except US intelligence agencies didn't really believe the invasion was going to happen.

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37374013

[caskstrength]

It is funny how all comments (including mine) pointing out that fact are heavily down-voted without any counterarguments. I know the rules, so I won't insinuate any kind of "shilling", but that really makes you think...

[93po]

I downvote it because it’s been repeated a dozen times and there’s a lack of intellectual honesty to say that a prediction that Russia wouldn’t invade is the same as spreading Russian propaganda for deliberate and malicious reasons. I can’t be bothered to explain it more than this because any ability to not see this means I’m wasting my time explaining it further

[caskstrength]

> I downvote it because it’s been repeated a dozen times and there’s a lack of intellectual honesty to say that a prediction that Russia wouldn’t invade is the same as spreading Russian propaganda for deliberate and malicious reasons.

It wasn't just a good-faith prediction, he was quite cocky and arrogant about that[0], including, ironically, accusing others of amplifying disinformation campaign:

"So... if nobody shows up for the invasion Biden scheduled for tomorrow morning at 3AM, I'm not saying your journalistic credibility was instrumentalized as part of one of those disinformation campaigns you like to write about, but you should at least consider the possibility."

At the same time he didn't appear too fazed by the invasion after it had begun, just casually accused others of concern-trolling[1] and "happily and thankfully" accepted Russian citizenship[2].

> I can’t be bothered to explain it more than this because any ability to not see this means I’m wasting my time explaining it further

I'm engaging in this discussion constructively and provide links to support my position. You preemptively accuse me of willful ignorance, but after re-reading his tweets I still stand by my words.

[0]: https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1493641714363478016

[1]: https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/1498049577131208705

[2]: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/dec/02/edward-snowd...

[phatfish]

I'll be charitable by assuming that people here are getting defensive by their hero not living up to expectations. Snowden is (justifiably) angry about the US treatment of him and happily amplifies Russian propaganda as some sort of badly considered revenge.

It's a shame that he uses his platform for this, especially as the current propaganda is in support of Russia rolling their tanks across the border and killing thousands of people in Ukraine.

[InSteady]

Also worth noting that it is strongly in his interest to craft and filter his public dialogue with the interests of the Russian state in mind. It is a basic fact of his existence, whether it is something he thinks about explicitly and often or not. Of course Russia isn't going to execute him or throw in in a gulag, since he is more valuable to them as a political set-piece that somewhat undermines America's moral high ground. However, that doesn't mean they can't lean on him considerably and make his life severely unpleasant in myriad subtle ways. There is no way he isn't acutely aware of Russia's reputation for brutal coercive tactics regarding their political enemies and targets, especially domestic ones.

He is completely at their mercy and he knows it. What is he going to do, cry out to the world that Russia is hounding and harassing him, or otherwise making his already beleaguered situation even less tenable? First of all, who is going to care that can do anything about it, second, it will delight people he almost certainly views as his enemy for him to make any such pleas and thirdly, it starts down a path of no return to start calling out Russia for abuses while you are stuck there with no allies and no way out.

Being on reasonably amicable terms with the power-elite in Russia is pretty much the last, best hope he has in this world. Whether consciously or not, the severe ramifications of burning that bridge are going to weigh on every decision and proclamation he makes. Of course he may always consider this effect and choose actions that upset Russia/Putin without regard for personal consequences. But it becomes increasingly easy to justify the path that doesn't lead to the complete crushing of your spirit the longer you have lived your life staring down the barrel of 5 or 10 different shotguns trained right between your eyes.

And of course it gets easier still when you feel wronged and martyred by the enemy of your friend, even if that friend is born purely out of necessity and circumstance. Anyway, all that is to say, thought I am grateful for his attempt to protect American citizens' constitutional rights and hold the government that professes to fight always for freedom to a higher standard... I have to take anything he has said in recent years as extremely biased and a product of "soft" but very serious coercion (from multiple fronts).

[pseudalopex]

Arrogance does not disprove earnest belief. Snowden's comments before the invasion disappointed me. But many others said similar things. And I don't believe he owes Ukraine effective statelessness. Did he say anything about the war in 18 months?

[caskstrength]

> Arrogance does not disprove earnest belief.

I'm not saying I'm absolutely positively 100% sure that he intentionally shills for Russia, but consider that he has been in Russia for quite some time now but only got the passport after he started tweeting from pro-Russian angle.

> But many others said similar things.

Yeah, but I kinda expected more from him than "US bad, then Russia must be good".

> Did he say anything about the war in 18 months?

I'm not aware of anything after his initial "okay, I won't talk about it anymore since you ghouls are concern-trolling me after I got this one wrong", but I'm not really tracking his hot takes on social media anymore. I think he recently switched to well-articulated and insightful commentaries on US preparing to attack China or something...

[0xDEF]

Snowden claimed in 2014 that the 2012 Internet shutdown in Syria was actually done by the NSA and not Assad. The totalitarian dictator apparently cared too much about the free flow of information to do such a thing.

https://time.com/3107684/snowden-nsa-syria-cybersecurity/

He didn't provide any proof for this and anyone who questioned Assad's dedication to a free and unfiltered Internet was apparently an NSA shill.

That was when the world should have learned that he had been turned by Russian intelligence.

[varjag]

If you choose the path of martyr you ought to follow it. "I did it for your freedom and that's why am now with your sworn enemy" can only work for so long.