[yyt88]

I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax the tendons/joints/muscles/...?

I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simple exercises regularly in breaks and evaluate? Obviously the standard Apple keyboard has terrible ergonomics, but something slightly more reasonable could already do the trick..

[nextlevelwizard]

While ergonomic keyboards are big part of some peoples fight against RSI, for many more using them is about comfort. After you get used to having tilted keyboard going back to normal one just feels tight and uncomfortable.

Also for me big part about customizing your tools is exactly that - you get to customize your tools. I type professionally so it is insane to me when I see my colleagues working on some random laptop keyboard and screen day after day when they could spend couple hundred bucks on a nice quality keyboard and large screen or two and make their work more enjoyable.

[atoav]

Sometimes switching positions dynamically is less straining than staying in the same (ergonomic) position forever, which is why most ergonomic chairs are about dynamic sitting.

But no amount of dynamic sitting and no ergonomic chair will make the bad influence of sitting go away — this can only be dealt with excercise, breaks and stretching. And every ergonomic chair can be misused. A person with good habits can sit healthy on a rock, a person with bad habits can sit unhealthy on a custom made ergonomic chair.

The same is true for the hands. As a life-long multi-instrumentalist with trained hands and fingers I could totally see someone with a laptop and the right habits ultimatly acting healthier as someone with the wrong habits and the best ergonomic keyboard that exists for them.

And this is the truth: Everything that involves the human motor system is never just about the objects we interact with, but always also to a major degree how we interact with them. My grand-grandmother that worked in her garden with 109 didn't have any ergonomic tools (as they didn't exist), but all the right habits. Habits are always more important than tools.

[nextlevelwizard]

Which is why RSI averse people recommend having multiple different input devices.

I do not suffer from RSI, but I have different keyboards for different things.

[yyt88]

"Insane"? I type professionally too. On my laptop, in a myriad different settings. Sometimes in a coffee shop, sometimes on a quiet bench in a hallway, sometimes at home on my sofa, my kitchen table, and sometimes at my desk. I enjoy every minute of it and I'm having a blast. 11 years and counting.

If it doesn't work for you then it doesn't mean it won't for anybody else. It's surely not "insane".

[henrik_w]

I worked for 14 years, coding almost every day, before I started feeling pain in my arms. Took quite a while to get better. Not saying it will happen to you (people are different), but in my case I think the problems built up over years of working with poor ergonomics. My best advice is to take it seriously if you do start feeling any pain.

[nextlevelwizard]

All I read is: "I have been a professional carpenter for a decade and sharp knife is all I use. I use it for floors, chairs, tables, and all. If it doesn't work for you then don't use it"

Of course I can work with a tiny laptop screen and keyboard, but I choose to actually have a pleasurable experience when I work.

[manuelmoreale]

Maybe laptop and tiny screen is pleasurable to them? I’m currently on a big 4K monitor with external keyboard and all that and I’ll probably go back coding on a laptop because for some reason the more compact experience is a lot more enjoyable for me. We’re all different after all and that’s ok

[yyt88]

And you call those "insane" who don't agree.

[nextlevelwizard]

Yes. Of course not meaning actually mental illness, but their values feel so out of wack it doesn’t make sense

[Symbiote]

Your experience at age 30-ish might not be the same at 40-ish.

I don't know myself, as I've not reached 40, but I'll take the advice of those that have and use the appropriate tool in the recommended way.

[yyt88]

I'm mid-50, thanks for asking. I've had a military carreer before doing more desk type of work.

This was about keyboards, but sure, we can talk about screen real etate too. It can be great, but it can introduce more distractions too. Having a single laptop screen in front of you makes you focus on what matters most. Those chat and mail windows can stay hidden until I need them and opt to get distracted. Others may see that differently, and that's ok.

[ashbee]

Is it possible you've taken more from that single word than was intended?

GP said "insane to me". I understood this as a colloquial expression of disbelief or surprise rather than an actual accusation of insanity.

E.g. I might say it's insane to me that anyone likes Brussels sprouts. The state of mind of someone who could hold such a position is so alien to me as to be comparable to insanity.

[layer8]

11 years isn't that long. Serious problems started for me after about 20 years.

[sesm]

There is a trade-off between mobility and ergonomics. For some people mobility is more important for various reasons.

[nextlevelwizard]

Maybe, but when they sit next to me for 8 hours that argument kind a falls off.

I am sure there are exceptions to this, but from my experience these people also aren’t nearly as productive as people who have usable, comfortable setups

[dharmab]

It's not either or. I switched to ErgoDox after I broke my wrist years ago. Even with surgery, OT and exercise, regular keyboards don't feel comfortable anymore for more than a few minutes at a time. (I also had to switch my wristwatch to the other hand.)

[XenophileJKO]

Still highly recommend the fully contoured options. I have 2 Advantage, an ErgoDox, and a custom built split contoured similar to Advantage 360.

The contouring significantly lowers the movement for your fingers.

[dharmab]

stretching my fingers is actually good for my injury, I do stretching exercises when I have breaks

[Cannabat]

I'm not sure if taking regular breaks and doing exercises can fully mitigate the RSI and discomfort/pain that drives many to use ergonomic keyboards and input devices.

Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse. It doesn't matter if I've spent the previous 3 months offline doing yoga (getting very thorough full-body movement) or totally absorbed in some computer-y project - "normal" input devices hurt! My shoulders and back are more tolerant, but eventually they start to ache too.

It's likely I didn't take care of myself properly earlier in life, but using a split keyboard and tilted thumb-operated trackball mean I can continue coding without nerve pain.

To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.

[vladvasiliu]

> Personally, my wrists start to hurt after only an hour or two of use of a "normal" keyboard and mouse.

IME, what has worked for me is to make the interval of the "regular breaks" on the order of one hour. The break isn't much, just get up, grab a glass of water or whatever, moving my arms and wrists a bit, then sit back down.

> To be clear, the goal is not exactly to move less - it's to keep the wrists and shoulders in a neutral, less-stressful position.

I fully agree with this.

The only hardware issue that couldn't be solved with this approach and required a new keyboard was the wrists-angled-up situation imposed by a 2012-era Apple keyboard (don't know if they've evolved since).

I've always refused to type for longer than a few minutes on keyboards that don't at least lay flat on the table. And for the keyboards I use every day (when sitting at my home or work desk) I've insisted on keyboards with a wrist rest and no number pad. I have a TKL one at home, and I think even that may be too large. My "75%" (laptop style, with the arrows under Enter and HOME / END / etc in a column to the right of Enter) is perfect.

[microtonal]

That’s a good question. As I get older, I’ve found that I should do all of them: regular exercises, good chair, height-adjustable desk, and a good ergo keyboard.

Even though my wrist issues have disappeared, I wish I could tell the younger me, who could type all day on a grey slab without breaks on a crappy chair, to care about ergonomics and improve along all these dimensions.

[wesapien]

The split allows you to open up your shoulders and straight end your wrists. Tenting or tilting does make it even more comfortable because it gets closer to a more vertical (handshake) position. I agree with you that movement, rest, and stretching is key. Staying too long in the same position is not good.

[yyt88]

Exactly my point. The Segway(tm) is also a great way to avoid sitting all day, but perhaps taking a walk is even better.

[rewmie]

> I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space.

I don't think your question comes from the right corner of the problem space to begin with.

If you have a class of products which are linked with health problems in a subset of the population, and another set of problems that mitigate or eliminate said health problems in that subset of the population, then why should we complain about the products that are designed explicitly to protect your health?

And think about it: it your keyboard is causing health problems, why are you exploring solutions that involve perpetuating the root cause of your problem?

[lacrimacida]

The regular standard keyboard hasn’t been a limitation to me in any way, I prefer mechanical keyboards as they feel slightly better but I never felt the desire to try a different layout keyboard. However, Im lucky that I don’t have RSI and that I don’t have to type so much so as to justify the effort of a better setup. So keep in mind, while some seek perfection for their own setup others are looking for a solution to a medical sort of problem, and that usually doesn’t have much to do with doing sports and taking breaks, once RSI becomes a problem, it’s no fun..

[microtonal]

That’s the thing, you don’t have issues until you have them. And then you wish that you cared earlier.

In hindsight I with I’d gotten that adjustable desk and (then) Kinesis Advantage ten years ago. But then I thought it’s a waste of money and I’m doing fine with my Apple keyboard.

[yyt88]

In hindsight, would it have helped you as well doing targeted exercising?

It's understandable that a tech community immediately turns to tech as a solution to problems, but it may not be the best solution, or at least not the only one available.

[microtonal]

I have been doing targeted exercising for a longer period. It helped, but didn't solve my issues.

I believe in a multi-faceted approach. Exercises are great, even necessary. But avoiding pronation in the other 55 minutes of an hour, letting the blood flow, is also useful.

Why should it just be one thing?

[yyt88]

> Why should it just be one thing?

I have not suggested that. Quite the opposite. Let's not make gadgets be the only thing that matters, even though it may be more fun to geek out on key alignment.

[microtonal]

You are fighting a strawman. No one said that gadgets are the only thing that matters. Most people who had hand/arm issues and use ergo keyboards will tell you to: go to a doctor first, then get a good chair and desk, do regular exercises, and maybe then get an ergo keyboard.

I have been in the MoErgo Discord for a while. When someone new comes in looking to buy a keyboard because they have wrist/hand/arm pains, the first advise consistently: go see a doctor.

[Isognoviastoma]

Keycap displays could be used to shuffle letters, thus prevent touch typing and force neck moves.

[microtonal]

Or just put on blanks.

[goodpoint]

The ergonomic aspect helps a bit but regular exercise and good posture is 1000 times more important. Ask any physiotherapist.

From a health pov mechanical keys are just an expensive gimmick.