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by whalesalad 1033 days ago
Absolutely
1 comments

What can we do?
Ideally? Mobilize like WW2 to decarbonize the economy. Quadruple the cost of fossil fuel via taxes and then use those funds to help the lower 60% or so survive by giving money direct to consumers for food, heating, etc. The markets will rapidly adapt as most tech is there, we just misallocate the hand of government spending.

Realistically since what I proposed above is non-viable? Increase the cost of producing fossil fuels through more direct means, of which discussion is banned on most of the public internet.

"Quadruple the cost of fossil fuel via taxes" - It's not what people want to hear, but this type of taxation will have no practical impact on the fossil fuel use of the world. Any fossil fuels produced and not consumed by the west where those tax regimes exist, will be consumed by the developing world. The overall world use of fossil fuels will continue to increase.

Nuclear does have a hope in changing this dynamic. But even then, fossil fuels have powerful advantages that won't be easily overcome any time in the next 10-15 years, at least.

I'm not gonna pretend I expect anything short of war, be it internal or external, to change things.

By the time it actually happens though it will be too late for a lotta people.

But the parent asked what we _should_ do.

> I'm not gonna pretend I expect anything short of war,

Ya know, it's never the people calling for a war that end up putting it all on the line to actually fight said war.

Wars of oppression sure. This one may be a bit different. As I like to say, arm your friends. What else are you doing with that tech salary.
A war for the preservation of nature and intelligent life is more than worth fighting. Just show me where to sign up.
Taxation to reflect the true cost of fossil fuels can (rather should) be redirected towards mega scale (ie matching the scale of oil extraction industry) actual atmospheric carbon capture, both industrial plant based (to create fuels used to reduce deep extraction fuels) and organic plant based (as plants are pretty damn good at pulling down C02) for sequestration.

The goal is to reduce the amount of CO2 going into the atmosphere by whatever means work.

Does not work in a globalised world as the emissions just move to wherever they are not taxed. Now, you could then tax imports but that’s your own populous paying that tax - and you no longer have free trade. Your exports will be uncompetitive due to the tax you levied on their production and any still-polluting trading partners you slapped tariffs on will respond in kind. End result is wholesale destruction of large segments of the economy (reducing your tax receipts which were supposed to support people) and famine in the developing world.
I've seen the fuel or carbon tax pitched with a program where wealthy states directly subsidize the growth of non-carbon-emitting processes (or a low amortized rate, for instance for the concrete and mining and processing of nuclear fuel)—the non-wealthy states can continue to grow at a similar pace while not sacrificing leverage over the wealthy ones. There are many reasons this likely won't happen, but there certainly are solutions for those searching for them.
Tax the hell out of meat and other animal products as well. Force the world to go vegetarian.
You don't have to do that explicitly. Tax all products by carbon emissions. Tariff all nations that do not participate in such a program.

You don't have to tax beef explicitly when you tax carbon because beef is carbon intensive and so the tax is implicit.

The problem is that carbon pricing is a political 3rd rail and also has no moat, so it's trivially easy for the a conservative government to pander and throw it out.

It seems impossible at times... creating more green energy just reduces the demand for fossil fuels, making them cheaper for other people to use. Reducing one's impact makes space for more people...basically, more efficiency in one place is immediately counteracted by people using MORE resources.

The only solution would be for humanity to collectively agree to make fossil fuels incredibly expensive GLOBALLY...in some way or another. Whether that's through collective action or something else, I guess time will tell.

On most days, I think we are screwed.

That's not the only solution. Another solution would be to come up with a better energy technology that's cheaper than fossil fuels.
That is not really a solution in itself though. As soon as it becomes cheaper, fossil fuel prices will drop due to a drop in demand for them, especially in developing countries. Moreover, more clean energy might mitigate the CO2 problem somewhat but it does not necessarily mitigate our expansion into natural habitats, an expansion that destroys them.

It is simple-minded to think that a single technological breakthrough will suddenly make the problem of climate change go away.

A cheaper alternative energy would reduce usage of fossil fuels even if they became cheaper.

I agree that a single technological breakthrough is unlikely to solve climate change. It will require many. I am simply pointing out that it is incorrect to say that the only solution is a global cartel to make fossil fuels much more expensive.

A magical unicorn that grants wishes would be another solution.
A magical unicorn is about as likely as convincing the world, including poor countries, to make fossil fuels more expensive on a global basis.
80 years ago vast swaths of the world sent a generation of their young people off to Europe and Asia to die for the sake of political alliances. Killing all those people was extremely expensive.

When did we become such losers?

The price of oil is held artificially high by OPEC so on that front at least I think we’re ok.
"Artificially high" by a factor of maybe 3. We need to look at how to get to a factor of 100 or 1000.

Oil is much, much more valuable in the long term as a material commodity, not a fuel commodity. This can be realized if we bring down the price of power, which is happening, albeit in only part of the globe.

Not high enough. It needs to be extremely expensive for everyone.
Stop ignoring climate science and stop politicising it unnecessarily, then take steps to move to renewable energy and cut down CO2 emissions from all sources. Figure out how to keep oil money out of public discourse.

And do it all 20 years ago. Like everyone was saying at the time.

I’d say I’m disappointed and disgusted at humanity’s collective failure to act in the face of clear evidence. But I had massively low expectations.

> What can we do?

The first thing that I thought of when reading the headline was “more cowbell.” [0]

But in reality the answer is “less cowbell” as bovine emissions are a significant greenhouse gas [1] and cattle ranching in Brasil is linked to deforestation. [2]

0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Cowbell

1. https://www.ucdavis.edu/food/news/making-cattle-more-sustain...

2. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/amazon...

Edit: added supporting links

Advocate for nuclear power, and advocate for easier zoning of energy projects.
Nuclear is too expensive nowadays and way too slow to build. For comparison we have 368GW of nuclear power in the world (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_commercial_nuclear_r....), while just last year we added 191GW of solar power (https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/03/22/new-global-solar-capa....). Solar installations are also growing pretty quickly YoY and it won’t be many years when we’ll be installing the total energy of all the world nuclear power plants per year in solar.
> Nuclear is too expensive nowadays and way too slow to build.

This was a policy choice and can be reversed.

It isn't. We can't build anything big and complicated without costs spiraling out of control. You're going to have to fundamentally change our management approach in this country to get cheap nuclear.
That sounds easier than some of the other ideas on this thread.
Collapse now and avoid the rush
Slow production and make longer-lasting goods.

Become more self-sufficient with more spread out plots of land to reduce shipping.

Explore and expand reusable containers.

Meatless Monday.

Design more efficient water-based appliances like sinks and showers.

Keep moving fwd w EVs.

As sympathetic as I am to these, at its best these make no impact to overall CO2 numbers in the time we need.

At its worst its propoganda to convince people its ok to keep buying things and living as they currently do as the rich abscond with the profits.

If I were you I would be extremely suspicious of media that promotes these kind of tepid measures as effective.

EVs still pollute.
Enjoying the remaining years