[dijit]

You'll be downvoted, but to answer this question with all honesty:

1) Disallowing a third-party in every single transaction you make, especially as

1a) Inflation means 3k now might be quite low in 20 years

1b) Banks themselves have been shown to be scummy

1c) Banks are a rare institution to allow outsiders into.

2) Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineligible for a bank account under random (but common) circumstances. -- an interesting loop you can get into is that you need to pay a utility bill in order to get a bank account, yet you can't pay a utility bill without a bank account.

3) Cash is the only fiat currency that actually exists, I know it's trendy to think that lines in a database are meaningful- but if you have physical cash you know what it's worth and it can't be hacked or seized. (though a good counterpoint is of course that you can be robbed or it can get destroyed).

I live in Sweden and we're very far down the path of "cash is dead" - there's a considerable number of stores and fast food joints that do not even accept cash. However, when I moved to this country I couldn't open a bank account and without people accepting cash at that time I would have paid exorbitant fees on each transaction.

So with that in mind I'm not in favour of restricting cash, I'm aware of the drawbacks of large fiat currency transactions; but It gives the central banks even more power than they currently have (which is a lot, which you'd know if you were on the wrong side of a policy or get into one of their loops) and we're not sure that they are going to continue to be fair into the future.

Note: you cannot hold a bank account with the central bank that actually issues currency. You are voting for a middle-man.

[Aaargh20318]

> Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible; it's quite common for people to be ineligible for a bank account under random (but common) circumstances.

Not in the Netherlands. Any adult (18 or older) resident of the EU has the right to a bank account, by law.

> an interesting loop you can get into is that you need to pay a utility bill in order to get a bank account, yet you can't pay a utility bill without a bank account.

Why would you need to pay a utility bill to get a bank account? Those two things are completely unrelated. All you need is a valid ID (either ID card, passport or drivers license) and you are required to have that anyway.

[dijit]

You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID.

A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license. (for example: I didn't when I got my first bank account).

My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor.

having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legislation that exists and must be complied with. The bank isn't just going to fully open an account with nothing but an ID. I can say that with absolute confidence after working in financial services (albeit briefly).

[ghaff]

When I got a RealID-compliant driver's license a few years ago in my state in the US, an existing driver's license and passport were not sufficient. I needed some document to server as proof of my current address, such as a utility bill. I don't remember what all the options were but, yes, some people--including kids getting their first driver's license or people sharing an apartment who don't have their name on a lease--can run into issues.

[Aaargh20318]

In the Netherlands, the government already keeps track of everyone’s address. If you move, you have to register your new address with the municipality within a certain time frame. (IIRC 2 weeks)

[ghaff]

The US is sort of loosey-goosey partly because we're not real big on getting registered with authorities and partly because the states have their own jurisdictions. So, if you're legitimately a digital nomad you sort of would have to do one or more things that are probably in a quasi-gray legal area so you can get ID and not be considered a tax evader.

[someplaceguy]

Yes, and that gets really "interesting" when you don't have a stable address of residence (e.g. because you are traveling for an extended period of time, possibly in-and-out of the country).

In some cases, you can get basically locked out of all essential services, including bank account closures, not being able to make payments (especially now with these laws), etc.

Real fun!

[PrimeMcFly]

Jesus that's freaky. Talk about government overreach.

[Aaargh20318]

This seems like a pretty basic thing for a government to do. They need to know your address for a lot of things. For example: taxes (notification that you need to file, your returns, etc). Voting (they send your voters pass to your registered address), fines (if you get caught by a speed camera they need to know where the car’s owner lives). Reminders that you need to renew your car’s annual inspection. Etc.

How would you handle those things without the government knowing your address?

[throwaway2037]

What country do you live in? For many highly developed democracies, this is normal and not scary.

[Aaargh20318]

> You need proof of address too, it's not enough to have just an ID.

Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

> A passport is good, but you should also be aware that not everyone has a passport or drivers license.

Anyone age 14 and up is required by law to be able to show an ID when asked. So yeah, everyone here has an ID.

> My first bank account was a deal my mother made with the bank where she acted as guarantor.

The rules for children are different. Once you turn 18 you need to ID yourself to the bank. If you don’t do this your account will be blocked. You will be informed of this shortly before you turn 18.

> having a right to a thing is not the same as actually getting it; there is a lot of anti-fraud legislation that exists and must be complied with. The bank isn't just going to fully open an account with nothing but an ID

You have a right to a basic account, not necessarily full service. You can send/receive money and get a debit card. Anything else, credit cards, loans, etc. are of course not included.

And sure, if you’ve been convicted of fraud or anything like that, that’s an exception.

[arp242]

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

You can't "just" get it if you don't have a fixed address, or if the address isn't eligible for registration (the rules for that are rather strict).

Netherlands is one if the hardest countries if you end up in an "exceptional" situation; you can work around "proof of address" (not always, but frequently), but it's much harder to work around the municipal registration.

Yes, there are rules for exceptions (e.g. "briefadres") and there's stuff like https://www.basisbankrekening.nl – but in reality people are so strict with this that it might as well not exist for vast swaths of people.

If you've never been in an exceptional situation you think it's easy and works grand, and it does, right up to the point it doesn't, at which point you're pretty fucked. People are unaware because they've never experienced it, but it's really awful.

Last year it took me 5 months and a lot of proverbial "banging fist on the table" to get a bank account in the Netherlands. It took me about 2 weeks in Ireland. Just sayin'

[throwaway2037]

What makes your situation exceptional?

[arp242]

I returned to Netherlands after many years abroad and didn't have anything set up except a tax number (BSN) like everyone. This may not sound too bad, but:

- Few people are willing to rent to you if you don't have a Dutch bank account and current registration.

- You can't get registration without a place to rent that qualifies (and many places don't).

I was earning €90k/year at the time; it wasn't a money issue.

[vladvasiliu]

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

I don't know how it is in Sweden or in the Netherlands, but here in France, I needed a bill or some other "proof of address" to register to vote with the town hall. I had been living in the same apartment for years, and they never seemed to require any proof before sending me the papers asking for the local taxes.

[someplaceguy]

> Yes, but you don’t need a bill for that, you can just get it from the municipality where you are registered.

Yeah, that's not how it works in all European countries. Which can get really "interesting" in some cases, believe me (I've lived through that).

I've also been requested proof of employment, which is also interesting when you're unemployed. In one of the countries, they said I can just give them proof of unemployment benefits... which I don't have, because I left my job willingly.

And then they told me: "well, in that case you can get proof of unemployment from the municipality". Except... that I'm not even living in your damn country and the municipality where I live doesn't even know whether I'm working or not (why would they?!).

But this does not even compare to all the problems I've had when I've not been living in the same place stably for an extended period of time. It has been an absolute hell in some cases, because institutions (governments, banks, lawyers, etc) simply do not account for this possibility. They all assume that you have a stable address of residence.

In some countries you can't even receive some types of registered mail unless it is addressed exactly to where you are staying at that moment.

> You have a right to a basic account, not necessarily full service.

I don't think that's how it works. The governments have created a legal requirement for banks to provide minimum banking services, yes. But banks still have to comply with many other very strict requirements and customers may not be able to fulfill them, which prevents them from opening bank accounts.

[ghaff]

>But this does not even compare to all the problems I've had where I've not been living in the same place stably for an extended period of time. It has been an absolute hell in some cases, because institutions (governments, banks, etc) simply do not account for this possibility. They all assume that you have a stable address of residence.

I haven't personally had this issue but I know someone who did in the US. No permanent address; they were doing a lot of traveling.

Nothing wrong/illegal about that. But, by the books, it means they can't get a driver's license and other important documents. So you basically have to lie. Either use a third-party digital nomad service (which I understand some states may flag) or find a trustworthy friend or relative to "live" with (who will forward important mail to you and vouch for you if needed--which is what they did). There are still potential issues with respect to things like jury duty but these can mostly work although they're almost certainly at least marginally fraudulent.

[throwaway2037]

    In some countries you can't even receive some types of registered mail unless it is addressed exactly to where you are staying at that moment.

This makes good sense to me in countries where you need to register you home address with the local govt. Then registered mail delivery becomes a form of ID check. This is normal in Japan and other places.

[someplaceguy]

But the point is that it makes it hard or impossible to receive that type of mail if you travel frequently...

[oliwarner]

It varies wildly between banks. Proof of address isn't a systemic requirement, it's a soft credit check that unlocks profitable functions.

Many banks (Santander, HSBC just two I checked) have entry points for people who are genuinely homeless. And accepted ID can include simple government things like council tax or a driver's license, but also just a letter from your employer or school. Again these are soft checks.

[SergeAx]

> Not in the Netherlands. Any adult (18 or older) resident of the EU has the right to a bank account, by law.

For immigrants or foreign workers a process of getting EU residence status may take months and sometimes require an EU bank account, so it may become an infinite loop. We have to take worst renting deals in order to get required papers, for example.

[PrimeMcFly]

Surely an ID isn't required, it's just that most have one anyway.

[NorwegianDude]

> Bank accounts themselves are not actually all that accessible

If you have a way to prove your ID(which basically everyone do in Norway) then bank accounts are very accessible and free. I don't know how many banks I have accounts at, but it's more than 15, and all you need is your ID and a couple of minutes to create an account.

[RMPR]

> If you have a way to prove your ID(which basically everyone do in Norway)

After going through the process of moving to Norway, I can say that unfortunately things are not that straightforward for foreigners. Even after getting your work permit, getting a personnummer can take up to several months after moving, not to mention getting an appointment with UDI can also take up to several months (in the meantime you'll feel like a lesser member of society, basic things like getting a library card are not accessible without it). After all there's a reason why this kind of service exist https://www.linkedin.com/posts/mpr_sua-techfasttrack-oslo-ac...

> then bank accounts are very accessible and free. I don't know how many banks I have accounts at, but it's more than 15, and all you need is your ID and a couple of minutes to create an account.

This only works when you already have a BankID. It takes at least 1 month to open your first account. Granted after that, everything is smooth, but oh boy how much time does it take.

[throwaway2037]

Where is your home country? Is the situation better or worse?

[ericfrazier]

ID and a decent credit report. I have been through times in my life where banks wouldn't give my spouse an account at all. No bank in Oregon or credit union would give her an account. To this day she still hasn't had a bank account in the last seven years. I can't even get a card in their name.

[NorwegianDude]

No idea how it's over there, but here there is no need for the bank to check your credit score unless you want credit.

A bank checking your credit score just because you want to create an account would be a huge invasion of privacy.

[throwaway2037]

    A bank checking your credit score just because you want to create an account would be a huge invasion of privacy.

Really? How else can a bank decide how much credit to extend you? Please bear in mind that allowing someone to have a bank account is part of the credit relationship.

[NorwegianDude]

If you need credit then they can and probably will check your credit.

There is no reason for the bank to check your credit score if you're only using your own money.

[porkbeer]

All banks use a credit reporting agency, a seperate one. You never discovering this just shows you and those you surround yourself with have never had to deal with it. Thats nice, but also a privliged and ignorant position.

[NorwegianDude]

If you think banks always check your credit score then you are just wrong, plain and simple. In Norway you'll always be notified when someone check your credit score, along with what data was provided, who requested it and when.

[throwaway2037]

It sounds like we are getting a thin slice of the full story. What made your spouse's situation unusual such that she could not get a bank account. I am finding some of these posts hard to believe.

[ericfrazier]

Bad credit rating and prior overdrafts is all it is. That's the complete story. Not even extensive overdrafts, like three a year before they lost their ability to get an account.

[dijit]

Depends on country a lot; in the Scandinavian countries there's a central identification database which links your entire identity including the registered address.

However, if I'm not from Norway/Sweden/Denmark then I'm not in that system yet.

[thraxil]

> I live in Sweden and we're very far down the path of "cash is dead" - there's a considerable number of stores and fast food joints that do not even accept cash. However, when I moved to this country I couldn't open a bank account and without people accepting cash at that time I would have paid exorbitant fees on each transaction.

I came here to say something similar. We moved to the Netherlands in 2014 from the US and it was three or four months before our immigration stuff was far enough along that we could open a local bank account with an IBAN and get a chip and pin card (at the time, virtually no US banks would give you chip and pin cards). My partner couldn't even get paid during that time until she had a bank account. We lived off withdrawing cash from my US account at ATMs. That included paying our rent (we were lucky that our landlord, who lived in a different city, was OK with us just paying cash to their relative who lived nearby).

[bonzini]

> Cash is the only fiat currency that actually exists

There's also money orders.

[culturestate]

I think GP means “exists” as in “doesn’t require a third party to complete the value transfer.”

If you give me a $20 bill, I can immediately exchange it for a case of beer at the bodega with no extra steps. If you give me a money order for $20, I need to find someone who is willing and/or able to convert that money order into a $20 bill before I can buy my beer.

[0xcde4c3db]

Funnily enough, paper currency originated as something akin to money orders in the first place, and merchants started accepting them directly because they were much more convenient to transport and secure than the equivalent amount of coins. That's why the formal term for paper money is "banknotes".

[bonzini]

But money orders can be treated as fiat if enough people agree to do it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniassegno

[culturestate]

I mean so can, like, grams of lead but that’s not really the discussion we’re having at this moment.

[scbrg]

No there isn't. At least not in the European country I live in.

[pc86]

What do you think a money order is?

[flir]

Maybe stamps.