[wakeupcall]

My impression for the popularity of the 75% form factor is due to laptops and people being accustomed to never have used the "missing" keys in the first place. A tell-tale is that default layout even for thinkpads is to set the Fn row to media keys by default... An increasingly smaller number of people use them, despite being a row of freely remappable keys right _there_.

What I've seen happen though is that especially on linux you need two-modifier combos (ctrl-shift/ctrl-alt) to perform what you could have done with a single Fn keystroke. Or burn a few extra keys and increase complexity with layers. I went this route a decade ago, and I'm not a fan personally. Removing the Fn row saves 2cm of vertical space from your desk. I see it as completely pointless, even if you never use the Fn keys.

And I don't buy the "reduced finger travel" argument either. Holding the modifiers in weird positions to access an extra layer is usually worse than a more spacious keyboard where your hands can be kept further apart and require less chording.

But yeah... I commented on another thread on keyboards, and the current keyboard craze is mostly about customization and looks, and very little about the actual typing experience IMHO (there are exceptions of course..).

[hnlmorg]

I completely agree. I never understood this craze of removing keys.

The number pad is another example of this. Typing numbers is massively more comfortable (and quicker too) on the number pad than it is with the row of numbers just below the F-keys.

The amount of desk space people save is so negligible, particularly when people who buy these keyboards typically work in “paperless” offices, that I never understood the appeal.

I guess it boils down to people wanting their keyboards to look pretty rather than being actually useful.

[rgoulter]

> I never understood this craze of removing keys.

There are (roughly) two families of "smaller keyboards".

Those with a big spacebar, and those with multiple thumbkeys.

Big-spacebar-small-keyboards are like laptop keyboards.

Whereas, for other kinds of small keyboards (such as the moonlander or planck) which provide thumbkeys, I'd say the emphasis is more about "bringing the full functionality of the keyboard to within easy reach of the hands" rather than "remove keys for whatever reason".

On traditional keyboards, the thumbs only get to use 1 key. A big spacebar is such an odd and inefficient use of keyboard real estate.

Whereas, with 2-3 keys each, the thumbs can be put to good use. e.g. It's much more comfortable to press backspace with the thumb, than to move your hand (or reach with the pinky finger).

[joncrocks]

I think it's a concession that use of particular parts of the keyboard is person and context specific.

e.g. At home, I only very occasionally enter numbers. I very frequently use my mouse, and have large monitors. So I sacrifice slightly less convenient number entry for slightly more room for my mouse(pad) all the time.

At work, I have a full-size keyboard and I spend a higher proportion of my time typing and entering numbers.

[qwerty456127]

Isn't it better to have identical keyboards everywhere for sake of muscle memory?

[nlunbeck]

This is my #1 priority now that I'm in the market for a new keyboard. I lose so much typing efficiency when switching between laptops, so functionality or comfort is no longer a leading factor for me.

[where-group-by]

I got a keyboard without the numpad due to the looks, but after using it a few years the full sized ones feel too bulky. I have to either move the mouse much further to the right or have my arms bent to the left when typing. Neither of which feels comfortable. I'm sure I could switch back if I needed to, but that extra space is welcome.

I agree entering numbers is better on a keypad though.

[delta_p_delta_x]

I do think a full-size 108-key board wastes a lot of space, but a 96%, similar to what's seen on full-size workstation notebooks (Dell Precision 7000 series, HP Zbook Fury, Lenovo ThinkPad P series) is much more efficient, while still providing Home, End, PgUp/Dn, Delete, Insert, arrow keys, and a full num-pad.

[glormph]

I agree that looks and deskspace is not something to optimize for and number entering is great on the number pad, but the ergonomics expert at my job informed us that shorter hand travel to the mouse is better against straining or something, so not using numpads would help. Or move the mouse/trackpad to the left.

[SoftTalker]

For many people who rarely need to type numbers, the number pad is wasted space. If you're an accountant you probably want one. Maybe even a separate, dedicated one.

I rarely type numbers and find that the "top row" number keys are adequate for when I need to.

[qwerty456127]

> Typing numbers is massively more comfortable (and quicker too) on the number pad than it is with the row of numbers

Let alone than with the row of numbers holding a Shift pressed (some languages require this because they remap the row for extra letters).

[eviks]

Why would you move your hand to the numpad if you can use your orthostaggered "numpad" with a layer right where your hand already is on the alpha keys?

[hnlmorg]

Because moving your hand is a one time effort vs moving it up and down the keyboard to enter those pesky 6 digit TOTP codes where the digits could be at opposite ends of the keyboard.

Plus I’ve been using keyboards longer than a lot of (probably most) developers on here have been alive and I haven’t ever found using the number pad to be even remotely an effort.

[eviks]

It's a one time effort you can easily avoid with a much smaller one time effort (tapping/holding a very convenient numpad layer modifier). And it's especially a wasted effort for very short numbers like TOTPs

And all the digits are right there, not at some opposite ends, e.g., UIO789 JKL456 M,.123 on a qwerty

[hnlmorg]

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Given_47]

I’m fairly certain they’re talking about creating an actual numpad layer on ur keyboard (which I also have), exactly so digits aren’t on the opposite side of the keyb. Mine is triggered by holding down esc/caps lock with my left, while my right is typing on the “numpad”

[qwerty456127]

As I already mentioned 4-5 times, one of the languages I use regularly reuses the number row for extra letters (and it isn't even enough for all of them). I have to hold Shift pressed to enter a number this way (using a keypad feels much better) or use CapsLock to enter a capital of such a letter.

[eviks]

My comment is about NOT using the number row, so your repetition is not a relevant response

[qwerty456127]

Back in the days when first computer keyboards were invented 7-bit ASCII was enough for everybody, now as everyone everywhere uses Internet daily for all sorts of tasks we have Unicode.

People don't need a keypad because they have the digits row. But there are languages (in Europe) which reuse the digits row for extra letters (which don't even fit there) so you have to press shift to enter a digit (yes, you can't enter such a letter in capital without using CapsLock), unless you have a kaypad.

People don't need F-keys (so these can be reused for multimedia controls) because they are not techies. Insert for the same reason.

People don't use Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn because they are completely uneducated about the basics of using a computer and use mouse/touchpad, arrows and backspace instead. Believe it or not, I've met people who don't even know Ctrl+C/V (let alone Ctrl+X or Ctrl+Z) and would always use the right-click menu (which even requires an additional keyboard key to be held pressed on a Mac) to copy/paste anything.

This said, compact keyboards target anglophone non-techie users (or hardcore VIM fans who have ways to do everything without leaving the home row).

[Symbiote]

> But there are languages (in Europe)

The languages appears to be Czech/Slovak. It would be more useful to mention this, than to repeat the basic point in four or five comments.

[ako]

Problem with the Fn keys is discoverability: i never remember which functionality is available on which key, and you have to remember different mappings for different apps. Actually thought Apple's solution for this, the touchbar, was pretty nice, sad that it failed...

[Given_47]

> despite being a row of freely remappable keys right _there_.

Lol right. And I add a shift layer to the fn row as well, to add more fn keys. Sadly a lot of apps won’t support fn20+ but u find more utility binding them to hand crafted actions anyway

[eviks]

> Holding the modifiers in weird positions to access an extra layer is usually worse

What's weird about home row or thumb mods?