[hnlmorg]

I completely agree. I never understood this craze of removing keys.

The number pad is another example of this. Typing numbers is massively more comfortable (and quicker too) on the number pad than it is with the row of numbers just below the F-keys.

The amount of desk space people save is so negligible, particularly when people who buy these keyboards typically work in “paperless” offices, that I never understood the appeal.

I guess it boils down to people wanting their keyboards to look pretty rather than being actually useful.

[rgoulter]

> I never understood this craze of removing keys.

There are (roughly) two families of "smaller keyboards".

Those with a big spacebar, and those with multiple thumbkeys.

Big-spacebar-small-keyboards are like laptop keyboards.

Whereas, for other kinds of small keyboards (such as the moonlander or planck) which provide thumbkeys, I'd say the emphasis is more about "bringing the full functionality of the keyboard to within easy reach of the hands" rather than "remove keys for whatever reason".

On traditional keyboards, the thumbs only get to use 1 key. A big spacebar is such an odd and inefficient use of keyboard real estate.

Whereas, with 2-3 keys each, the thumbs can be put to good use. e.g. It's much more comfortable to press backspace with the thumb, than to move your hand (or reach with the pinky finger).

[joncrocks]

I think it's a concession that use of particular parts of the keyboard is person and context specific.

e.g. At home, I only very occasionally enter numbers. I very frequently use my mouse, and have large monitors. So I sacrifice slightly less convenient number entry for slightly more room for my mouse(pad) all the time.

At work, I have a full-size keyboard and I spend a higher proportion of my time typing and entering numbers.

[qwerty456127]

Isn't it better to have identical keyboards everywhere for sake of muscle memory?

[nlunbeck]

This is my #1 priority now that I'm in the market for a new keyboard. I lose so much typing efficiency when switching between laptops, so functionality or comfort is no longer a leading factor for me.

[where-group-by]

I got a keyboard without the numpad due to the looks, but after using it a few years the full sized ones feel too bulky. I have to either move the mouse much further to the right or have my arms bent to the left when typing. Neither of which feels comfortable. I'm sure I could switch back if I needed to, but that extra space is welcome.

I agree entering numbers is better on a keypad though.

[delta_p_delta_x]

I do think a full-size 108-key board wastes a lot of space, but a 96%, similar to what's seen on full-size workstation notebooks (Dell Precision 7000 series, HP Zbook Fury, Lenovo ThinkPad P series) is much more efficient, while still providing Home, End, PgUp/Dn, Delete, Insert, arrow keys, and a full num-pad.

[glormph]

I agree that looks and deskspace is not something to optimize for and number entering is great on the number pad, but the ergonomics expert at my job informed us that shorter hand travel to the mouse is better against straining or something, so not using numpads would help. Or move the mouse/trackpad to the left.

[SoftTalker]

For many people who rarely need to type numbers, the number pad is wasted space. If you're an accountant you probably want one. Maybe even a separate, dedicated one.

I rarely type numbers and find that the "top row" number keys are adequate for when I need to.

[qwerty456127]

> Typing numbers is massively more comfortable (and quicker too) on the number pad than it is with the row of numbers

Let alone than with the row of numbers holding a Shift pressed (some languages require this because they remap the row for extra letters).

[eviks]

Why would you move your hand to the numpad if you can use your orthostaggered "numpad" with a layer right where your hand already is on the alpha keys?

[hnlmorg]

Because moving your hand is a one time effort vs moving it up and down the keyboard to enter those pesky 6 digit TOTP codes where the digits could be at opposite ends of the keyboard.

Plus I’ve been using keyboards longer than a lot of (probably most) developers on here have been alive and I haven’t ever found using the number pad to be even remotely an effort.

[eviks]

It's a one time effort you can easily avoid with a much smaller one time effort (tapping/holding a very convenient numpad layer modifier). And it's especially a wasted effort for very short numbers like TOTPs

And all the digits are right there, not at some opposite ends, e.g., UIO789 JKL456 M,.123 on a qwerty

[hnlmorg]

I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Given_47]

I’m fairly certain they’re talking about creating an actual numpad layer on ur keyboard (which I also have), exactly so digits aren’t on the opposite side of the keyb. Mine is triggered by holding down esc/caps lock with my left, while my right is typing on the “numpad”

[hnlmorg]

Yeah I got that, but I disagree having to hold down down additional keys to enable that mode, and importantly in my case, having to remember to hold them down is less effort then moving your wrist two or three inches.

Ultimately there’s going to be a lot of personal habit baked into these preferences and we are talking about micro-optimisations at best anyway. Which I why I think it’s probably better to just agree to disagree.

[qwerty456127]

As I already mentioned 4-5 times, one of the languages I use regularly reuses the number row for extra letters (and it isn't even enough for all of them). I have to hold Shift pressed to enter a number this way (using a keypad feels much better) or use CapsLock to enter a capital of such a letter.

[eviks]

My comment is about NOT using the number row, so your repetition is not a relevant response