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by Brotkrumen 1036 days ago
What would those topics be? I guess they are suppressed quite well, since none come to mind.
8 comments

"I dare you to say forbidden things publicly as we comment on an article discussing the negative impacts of doing so"
Are we pretending now, that even mentioning these "forbidden topics" will get you banned?

Here, I'll mention some for you: eugenics, Holocaust, incest.

So please, if I don't get censored for these, please tell me what these secret topics hidden from me are!

Taking this as a serious question, it wouldn't be hard to make a list of topics that get instant flagging on HN. I suppose the reason why people don't bother is they expect any attempt to explain would also be downvoted to oblivion.
I'm not sure it's that cut and dry. But I agree there are some viewpoints more likely to be downvoted than others.

I strongly disagree with Graham's view that disagreement is a good reason for downvoting.

Question the legitimacy of gender fluidity. Wonder aloud whether some traditional social norms have societal value, even if the religious rationales are absurd. Wonder aloud if violence (perhaps only against property) will be required to bring about radical political and economic change.
I've seen those posts here, I've read the arguments in the comments. What is censored then? Unpopularity or pushback isn't censorship
Speaking for myself, I will say HN is more tolerant of good faith debate on the subjects than places like reddit. But I mean the real world. Despite being liberal and tolerant, I feel I have to be extremely cautious who I speak to about any doubt around certain social movements. To express reservation in some circles would not being debate, but only accusations of bigotry followed by public shaming.
A lot of discourse about China on HN seems to get pulled into perpetual "but bad things have happened in the US too" whataboutism and a sort of mild muffling. Not to mention the weird stuff that happens with topics like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36946171.
The discourse exists though, right? Here and elsewhere. Censorship isn't pushback, bad arguments aren't either
I mean the piece isn't really about traditional censorship as such, but social forces working against the expression of particular topics and acting to reduce their visibility.
I'm reading it as social forces making certain topics unpublishable. In his words

>facts which the Soviet government would prefer to keep hidden, is next door to unprintable.

All topics mentioned so far as "censored" have enjoyed enough publication and even being successful political platforms.

What people here mistake as censorship is usually regurgitated bad arguments being unpopular

I could mention 100 I reckon, but this comment would be cancelled so hard it would pop out the other side of the server :-). Which is the point.
I've mentioned 3. I've lost 2 popularity points so far. Am I being censored?
The whole Covid fiasco can't really be discussed on HN. If you try, you either get flagged to death or told to "get over it".
> The whole Covid fiasco can't really be discussed on HN.

"Covid fiasco" is not a monolith.

On one side, there are people with a position "Covid is much less severe than we though, we should have just let it spread through population, and go on with out lives as normal, like we do with flu. The fiasco is that we tried to control it at all."

On another side there is a position "Covid is a more severe disease than we realize. It affects multiple organs, and after repeated infections some people will get long covid for years, or permanently. We should still aim to restrict the spread of the virus, not anymore with lockdowns, but with clean indoors air, and keeping using masks is crowded situations and in healthcare. The fiasco is that we gave up on trying to control the infections."

My side is Nature medicine should not be publishing political propaganda and pressuring scientists[1] to lie in the name of the CCP.

[1]https://theintercept.com/2023/07/12/covid-documents-house-re...

The real question is not so much "can I do it on HN or other niche forum X" but "can I do it anywhere where people with polar opinions can have a reasonable debate", and even more interesting "can I say this in public, where my face is in punching distance" and then the ultimate "can I say this in an election campaign" (at which point even basic facts are off limits).
I would wager most folks on the keyboard warpath (or podium/camera) would be much more civil with their alleged target if they were sitting across the table from them.
Are you implying that internet giving voice to people without power to do violence is a bad thing? Should only strong and powerful be given freedom to speak?
Why is that the real question?

Are you saying that if enough people get angry at your words, your freedom of speech doesn't matter anymore?

Individual forums can decide what is on/off topic. I can see why a forum would want to control what topics are on and off topic.

Obviously you can say anything you like on unmoderated places like 4chan, but what does that prove?

This whole thread is beyond the point, since the original commenter asked which are the topics that you can't discuss on HN. Your replies only confirm that Covid is indeed a topic that you can't discuss on HN.

---

I'll reply for completeness anyway:

> I can see why a forum would want to control what topics are on and off topic.

There's a difference between banning flamewars and banning any kind of discussion. I am talking about the latter, not the former, which did indeed happen during Covid.

> Obviously you can say anything you like on unmoderated places like 4chan, but what does that prove?

Indeed, 4chan was the place where you could see discussion about the Covid policies and the media claims, from masks to lockdowns and mandatory vaccines - in fact, it was the one of the only places you could talk about it. Many of the things discussed there turned out to be true.

I find COVID to be an especially bad example. the whole spectrum is represented in politics.
Bingo.
Ivermectin is a good start.
Transexuals are not women, abortion is murder, the US and/or Ukraine provoked the war, average IQ of different races and how it explains their behaviour. There you have four things that will earn you an instant flag (perhaps not in this thread for obvious reasons)
And yet I still see them debated regularly. They're not forbidden, they're unpopular. A consequence of having a system of voting and flagging is that you won't always agree with the way people vote and flag.

> Transexuals are not women

As an aside, I've noticed a pattern that people fret endlessly over trans women and don't really take notice of trans men. I don't know why that is, but there must be a reason why it's so remarkably consistent.

Is it just statistical? Maybe there are more trans women? Or they are more obvious/apparent online. But it any case it is almost a simple true scotsman fallacy. They are a woman iff that is your definition.

Accessibility tip: Hit the “X minutes days ago” link if this has gone too grey to read.

Misogyny
A consequence of having a system of flagging is that dang can avoid having to do any work by having users remove other users' comments, keeping the site in one side of the political spectrum. (Just to be clear, I don't think he particularly cares which side wins, as long as it allows him to avoid any responsibility)
People still talk about these things all the fucking time. They're debated on worldwide TV broadcasts.
I propose as an experiment, you go make an offensive left-wing comment on a relevant thread (maybe "ACAB" or "eat the rich"), and see if it gets flagged and downvoted.

I read a bunch of right-wing comments on HN (including ones making good arguments), the reports of left bias on HN are greatly overstated.

They're effectively contentless comments of no merit.

Any slogan yelling should get downvoted by HN standards regardless of partisan bias.

An Eat the Rich comment that includes a quality recipe, however, should be rewarded with tolerance if not upvotes.

I can't say I agree, if someone made a high effort post arguing for eating the rich, I personally would still flag it because I flag all calls to violence, whether they are low effort or not. (Some people say "eat the rich" to mean "redistribute wealth through taxation," if I could tell that's what they meant I probably wouldn't flag it, other people uh, don't. Maybe the recipe you referenced is a policy proposal, let me know if I've misread you.)
If God didn't mean for poor people to eat rich people, he wouldn't have made them of meat. [1]

The Cannibal Cookbook: Human meat recipes from around the world

https://www.amazon.nl/-/en/Nico-Claux/dp/B08SGR2W6M

[1] Paraphrased from The Reluctant Cannibal:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjAHw2DEBgw

You are assuming that the topics I mentioned would be posted in the shape of short slogans, but they could be posted as long comments of several paragraphs and be flagged all the same.

Also there is no left bias. There is a progressive bias. Not exactly the same

That's not really what I meant re slogans, they were more examples of convenience. But I could have expressed myself better there.

When I see political comments get flagged, it's usually because they said something explicitly offensive or insulting. They'll sign of with an edit attacking downvoters, say something insulting about their political opponents, or reference a conspiracy theory. That will reliably get you flagged regardless of the position you are advocating.