[shadowtree]

From a logical perspective, Montana now needs to declare war on China and India. The US' CO2 emissions have been falling for a long time, now at levels of the 1950s.

Pritzker's nuclear ban also means Montana invading a fellow state.

[breakyerself]

The US is the #2 largest CO2 emitter and the largest overall historical emitter of CO2 so it would make more sense to declare on the US itself and China, then India if there's still powder left after that, but I don't imagine you're being anythinglre than facetious.

[shadowtree]

China in 2021 emitted 12,500 Mtons of CO2.

The US in 2021 emitted 4,700 Mtons of CO2.

The EU in 2021 emitted 2,700 Mtons of CO2.

China emitted nearly as much CO2 than the US and EU combined.

The US' CO2 output peaked in 2000, with 6000 Mtons, has been steadily declining ever since.

https://edgar.jrc.ec.europa.eu/report_2022

[triceratops]

Good. Now add up all the emissions from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and tell us.

[shadowtree]

How is this relevant for policy decisions now? Build a time machine?

[triceratops]

It matters for fairness. You can't get China, or any other country, to agree on low-carbon policy if they think it's unfair to them. So it matters very much that the US and other developed countries do more than China, India or other developing countries. Even if developing countries are currently emitting more carbon than them.

We're not going to get China to agree to meaningfully lower emissions without doing proportionally much more ourselves. That's the reality.

Plus all those historical emissions are still around, heating up the planet, so we still bear responsibility for them. What you're advocating for is making the last guy to use the bathroom clean it up, when in fact many people have been befouling it for weeks before this guy even got there. And we have a pretty good idea of who those other people were and what they did. If the objective is a clean bathroom, I guarantee you pinning it on the last guy will not get it done.

At this point I put anyone who says "But what about China/India/Nigeria?" in the same camp as climate change deniers. It's just a different excuse to pass blame and guarantee nothing gets done, which is the point.

[shadowtree]

The climate is not about fairness, nature does not care.

We either agree on practical solutions at scale, or we don't.

Social justice is another topic.

[undersuit]

Montana can start at home. Our government recently approved Northwest Energy's purchase of a coal plant after Washington and Oregon companies divested because of climate policies from their home states.

[asynchronous]

And yet almost all of western Montana is still powered by clean hydropower.

Why does the west love to rip ourselves to shreds over non-issues? Our enemies aren’t half as dedicated as we are.

[undersuit]

What enemies? Oh enemies like fossil-fuel energy companies?

[shadowtree]

Montana has a population of 1.1 million people. Does not even make the size of a small Chinese city.

Nothing Montana does has a measurable effect on global climate change.

[undersuit]

You said Montana should declare war on China.

I can do things to make my state better, China is distant and far more powerful than even the Big Sky state.

[lostmsu]

There are less severe actions than invading.

[Aachen]

And more effective/efficient, if this were a serious discussion of options