[shadowtree]

China in 2021 emitted 12,500 Mtons of CO2.

The US in 2021 emitted 4,700 Mtons of CO2.

The EU in 2021 emitted 2,700 Mtons of CO2.

China emitted nearly as much CO2 than the US and EU combined.

The US' CO2 output peaked in 2000, with 6000 Mtons, has been steadily declining ever since.

https://edgar.jrc.ec.europa.eu/report_2022

[triceratops]

Good. Now add up all the emissions from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution and tell us.

[shadowtree]

How is this relevant for policy decisions now? Build a time machine?

[triceratops]

It matters for fairness. You can't get China, or any other country, to agree on low-carbon policy if they think it's unfair to them. So it matters very much that the US and other developed countries do more than China, India or other developing countries. Even if developing countries are currently emitting more carbon than them.

We're not going to get China to agree to meaningfully lower emissions without doing proportionally much more ourselves. That's the reality.

Plus all those historical emissions are still around, heating up the planet, so we still bear responsibility for them. What you're advocating for is making the last guy to use the bathroom clean it up, when in fact many people have been befouling it for weeks before this guy even got there. And we have a pretty good idea of who those other people were and what they did. If the objective is a clean bathroom, I guarantee you pinning it on the last guy will not get it done.

At this point I put anyone who says "But what about China/India/Nigeria?" in the same camp as climate change deniers. It's just a different excuse to pass blame and guarantee nothing gets done, which is the point.

[shadowtree]

The climate is not about fairness, nature does not care.

We either agree on practical solutions at scale, or we don't.

Social justice is another topic.

[triceratops]

> The climate is not about fairness, nature does not care.

> Social justice is another topic

It's about practicality, not social justice. Put it bluntly: China (and India) won't accept a solution they feel is unfair. If you really want them to do something, fairness is not optional.

Go back to my analogy. You're saying "The bathroom doesn't care who cleans it, it just has to be done". But the people who would be doing the clean care very much and that ultimately determines if the bathroom is cleaned at all. Either you don't understand this basic point - which means you don't understand anything about human nature, and should therefore re-evaluate all of your opinions on public policy - or you're putting your head in the sand deliberately because you don't want to lift a finger yourself.

> We either agree on practical solutions at scale, or we don't.

So what are the practical solutions? Because telling China, or India "Stop industrializing right now!" so Americans can keep driving SUVs will simply not work.

[shadowtree]

China is a lost cause, as it is isolating itself.

India is not. Partnering with them on nuclear, incentives on transport and supply chain would pay off massively. Same is true for EU, which is all over the place - Finland builds reactors, the Germans go "green" by burning brown coal.

And then there are the hardcore solutions around SO2, which just got airtime due to the discovery of clean shipping and the massive backfire on ocean temps. Pump that thing into the atmosphere, buy time.

Also ban all private air travel.