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by chanakya 1037 days ago
A core element of socialism is that all industries and natural resources are state-owned. European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they are by being so.
3 comments

Technically, kind of, but not exactly.

Anytime this point comes up, someone on the right/Republican will say any taxation is Socialism, that Europe is Socialist. So, to compare Europe/Nordic socialist policies, to US policies is not a large leap. You can't just say, "well technically that isn't really socialism so we can't use that as an example in this argument", when literally for a decade the 'right' has specifically called them socialist.

>taxation is Socialism

Nonsensical strawman. Socialism has a real meaning and "taxation" isn't it.

Tell that to Republicans. If 50% of the population does believe that. Then I'm forced to make the point, to address it in that way.

I know this, but there is 50/50 chance that whoever is posting on the internet does not know it.

America has taxation.
Yes? and The US also has regulations.

And Republicans argue that both are socialism.

Half of the country thinks "anything the government does is socialism" and campaigns to stop it, or get rid of it, or handicaps it, or how it is just evil and control.

Basically to the right: 'government' = 'socialism'. And they haven't realized yet they are arguing for anarchy.

>"anything the government does is socialism"

I thought republicans wanted to strengthen borders?

I do not follow US politics, but I never heard anyone advocating that taxation should be abolished. Seems a bizarre claim. Here in Germany parties publish the platforms they are running on, is there something similar in the US?

Minor quibble. The industries generally need to only be "socially-owned" rather than state-owned. Though I will admit that state-ownership is the most common in practice.

More of an academic point though, as Europe, as a whole, is still basically completely capitalist under this definition as well.

Edit: An example of a socially-owned company that is not state-owned would be an employee owned company.

Sure, I'm saying:

- there are big differences between US capitalism and European social democracy

- European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time

> European countries are capitalist, not socialist, and got where they are by being so.

Ehhhh communist movements, multiple devastating wars, and unions had a hand in it too.

> - European social democracies are trending more socialist all the time

Eh? Which ones? As a European this is very much news to be; not much seizing of the means of production going on. If anything, some divesting of the means of production; heavily regulated privatisation of state energy, transport etc monopolies has been going on all over Western Europe for a while.

I realise that in the US, the colloquial definition of ‘socialist’ these days is more or less “not actively going around kicking poor people”, but the idea that Europe is becoming more socialist by any reasonable definition is a bit out there.

There's a recent rightward shift for sure, but long term benefits are increasing, unions are gaining power, and you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies. This is the power dynamic described by socialism: people control companies, not the other way around.
>you're seeing people use democracy to force industry to adopt green policies

No, you are seeing governments force green policies against the will of the majority.

https://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

This is a ranking of economic freedom which strongly aligns with capitalism. The U.S. ranks 25th behind European countries like Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Germany, Iceland, etc.

It looks like this ranks things like freedom to invest, trade, etc., none of which are incompatible with socialism.
Investment directly implies private ownership of the means of production.