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by simplefish 5204 days ago
I'm not sure why you seem surprised; this is a very long standing trend. It's also pretty obvious. You aren't the only one to value quality of life over quantity; in fact everyone else does too. The only problem is that if you're very poor you don't have a choice. Wherever and whenever the human race manages to claw its way out of poverty, we immediately stop having so many kids. It's not magic.

That being said...

1) What upcoming food shortage? Food production is largely a solved problem. We know how to sustainably produce large amounts of food from a given amount of arable land, and we have plenty of arable land to feed not just the current global population, but the projected maximum global population. It's true! We already have the ability to feed the largest population we'll ever have. True, Africa currently has food shortages, but as soon as Africa stops relying on peasant farming, that problem goes away. We can argue about when (or if) Africa is going to finally have their own Green Revolution[0], but...upcoming shortages? Do you know something the rest of us don't? :)

2) I might ask what upcoming resource shortage, but that's a more complicated question, and probably not worth arguing about. Still, you might want to consider the outcome of the Simon-Erlich wager[1], look at commodity price trends over the last couple decade, and then look at futures prices. Would you take Erlich's side in a repeat of the original wager? I wouldn't, and it's worth noting that Erlich and his ideological allies have repeatedly refused to do so. Again, what do you know that they don't?

3) Also, this is wonderful news for "investors" too (why beat around the bush? Call them "capitalists"; you know you want to...). Trust me, the slavering capitalist dogs are VASTLY more interested in having a rich China full of consumers than in having a poor China full of workers. It might be nice to have cheap Chinese labour making iPods to sell to 300m rich Americans, but it will be FANTASTIC to have cheap robot labour making iPods to sell to 1.3b rich Chinese. (And that's precisely the scenario you're envisioning.) Lower costs and higher sales is how capitalists make their money in the real world.

4) Finally, it remains to be seen how good it will be environmentally. In the short run (say, the next 50 years), it probably won't be. Much as with population growth, we see an inverted curve. Very poor countries can't afford to pollute, and very rich ones can afford not to - but right in the middle you end up polluting a bunch. We went through that period in the late 19th and early 20th centuries; now it's China's turn. They're producing less pollution for every dollar of GDP each year, but their GDP is climbing much faster. The environment is likely to get worse before it gets better. (Of course, look on the bright side: We are conquering global inequality, and the environment will recover eventually. Those are both GREAT. But let's not get carried away.)

[0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Revolution

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager

4 comments

To claim that modern food production is sustainable when it is extremely dependent on cheap energy from oil seems quite a stretch stretch to me. It may work at the present oil prices but how many times can oil prices double until current practices stop working?

Note that I don't believe this will be food induced Armageddon. Rather, I expect a retooling just as big as the green revolution towards energy efficiency and energy output (as opposed to the great input that happens currently).

Simon-Erlich wager is the mother of all cherry-picks. It tracks the decline in oil prices in the 1980-1990 decade from over $110 to $30. Driven by cheap energy, commodity prices declined as well.

http://inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/historical...

There are reasons to believe the era of cheap oil / energy is over, due to a combination of peak oil and the globally connected population growing from 1 billion to 3-4 billions and then some more. Think China + India joining the global economy. Indeed, the oil prices are now close to the Dec 1979 maximum. Commodity prices follow:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vsQ_G2OOspQ/S6-J-F32xaI/AAAAAAAABp...

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=copper+prices+1970+2010

Your point 4 is exceedingly optimistic. The environment won't "recover". It will certainly reach a stable equilibrium, but that equilibrium may well be something we, as a species, won't particularly like or thrive in.

While we're talking arable land, we need to consider that the majority of the land that could be deployed as farmland is home to a whole host of ecosystem services and bio-resources that, if destroyed, won't be coming back. Temperatures can stabilize, pollution can go down, but if we can't stave off habitat loss and destruction, we'll be a lot worse off than today. More people means they all need somewhere to live, somewhere to grow their food, and somewhere to put their waste. That space is all at the expense of organisms we need. We can't just shrug our shoulders and assume everything will bounce back eventually.

As for the fertility implosion itself - it needs to happen, sooner or later. Those 20-year olds in the Middle East and the babies being born today? Yeah, they'll get old, too. Brooks' view on demographics is a pyramid scheme, we need to figure it out, and I'd sooner have it happen now while we still have a relative diversity of species and environments left.

> What upcoming food shortage? Food production is largely a solved problem. We know how to sustainably produce large amounts of food from a given amount of arable land, and we have plenty of arable land to feed not just the current global population, but the projected maximum global population. It's true! We already have the ability to feed the largest population we'll ever have. True, Africa currently has food shortages, but as soon as Africa stops relying on peasant farming, that problem goes away. We can argue about when (or if) Africa is going to finally have their own Green Revolution[0], but...upcoming shortages? Do you know something the rest of us don't? :)

(I had a strong personal reaction to your tone; I find your tone really unpleasant. I recognise this is my problem. Sorry.)

You're right that there is enough food for everyone to be fed and live a productive life.[1] But there are still extensive problems sharing that food out.

Just one example: almost half of children under 5 in Nepal are stunted because of chronic malnutrition.[2]

Developing countries spend too much money importing food.[3]

There are problems now that are hard to overcome in future - climate change, desertification, salination, rates of HIV / AIDS in the farming population, migration, etc. Here's a set of photos showing some problems. (http://www.irinnews.org/photo/Slideshow/43/Too-Poor-to-Farm)

But there are interesting methods that show some promise - such as 'empowering women'.[4]

I don't think we are conquering global inequality. I think it's getting worse. And the environment might not recover eventually; it might go into runaway heating and boil off the atmosphere. Or it might recover eventually, after having killed off all human life.

[1] (http://www.wfp.org/hunger/faqs)

[2] (http://www.irinnews.org/Photo/Details/201112300839360722/A-y...)

[3] (http://www.irinnews.org/In-depth/77872/72/A-global-food-cris...)

[4] (http://www.irinnews.org/Report/95038/FOOD-Reduce-hunger-nurt...)

"I don't think we are conquering global inequality. I think it's getting worse."

I'm sure you think that, but the numbers are clear, and not really under any dispute. Global inequality has been falling steadily and rapidly since 1980; it's the biggest reduction in absolute poverty the world has ever seen. You can interpret those numbers however you like, but those are the numbers.

"And the environment might not recover eventually; it might go into runaway heating and boil off the atmosphere."

Not according to the IPCC and the "scientific consensus". :)

Some believe that equality means that the gap between the rich and poor is lessened, and if that was your frame of mind, then it does seem like global inequality has risen.

However, absolute poverty is decreasing just as you said, and i think that ought to be the real measure. Who cares if the richest of the rich is 100million times better off than the poorest, if the poorest is better off already?

This stuff is actually not as hard as you seem to be making it. We don't need all these "some believe" or "seem like" qualifirs.

First, what do we mean by "global inequality"? Well, let's break that down. We're talking about a metric measuring income dispersion, which is, yes, a measure of the gap between rich and poor. A common metric is the Gini Coefficient[1]. And instead of looking at the coefficient of a single country, if we look at the entire population, we get a metric of global inequality. Not hard, right?

Second, what have metrics of global inequality been doing since 1980? Why, they've been falling[2]!

So, yes, the "gap between the rich and poor [has] lessened". I have no idea why you or anyone else might think that it seems otherwise. Find an op-ed or column about the global economy from anytime in the past decade, and you've got a good chance of it either talking about how real incomes in the West (ie, the global 1%) are stagnating, or how real wages in China (ie, the global 99%) are booming. There's really no way this could happen and not result in a significant reduction in the gap between the rich and poor. And indeed, that's exactly what's resulted. (And to tie it back to a perennial HN favourite, the mechanism by which this has happened - an unprecedented reduction in global inequality and a massive reduction in absolute poverty - is exemplified by Apple and Foxconn.)

(You're also right that we could have a reduction in absolute poverty even as global inequality increased. But that's now what is happening.)

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

[2]: I'm resisting supplying citations because a quick Google search will turn up, literally, pages of results. Still, if you want one image, this one[3] isn't bad.

[3]: http://media.economist.com/sites/default/files/cf_images/200...

And the environment might not recover eventually; it might go into runaway heating and boil off the atmosphere.

Runaway heating strikes me as highly unlikely. As temperature increases, blackbody radiation increases. Since solar input is very roughly constant, eventually a new equilibrium will be found where energy lost to space once again equals energy received from the sun.