[jrockway]

> I wouldn't want any politician (regardless of party allegiance) to agree on any spending if there is not also an agreement on how to finance such spending.

In the case of the debt ceiling spats, Congress has literally already authorized the money to be spent. The debt ceiling prevents the executive branch from borrowing money to spend according to Congress's wishes. That's why everyone thinks it's weird.

[logifail]

> Congress has literally already authorized the money to be spent

If you were a business or a family, you'd talk about how you plan to agree to finance any serious purchase before (or at the very least in parallel ) with agreeing the purchase itself.

[lesuorac]

Sure but that's apples to oranges.

Congress authorizes say 10T to spend. Over the next years the president spends 7T and then the coffers run empty and says hey I need more money to do what you told me to do! And then congress raises the debt ceiling and borrows to cover that 3T.

Which of course differs from your example in that when you go to buy say a car you also agree to borrow the money (or not). Congress only makes just-in-time decisions.

I also don't think its true that as a business you'd have made that decision. Do you consult the CFO every time you use the corporate card?

[logifail]

> Congress only makes just-in-time decisions

Do they have to do it like that, or is that just how it's done?

How about in parallel with the budget they also discuss the debt ceiling? Get the finance in place, then agree how to spend what money they've agreed they can raise? Apologies in advance if that suggestion is completely ignorant and/or completely crazy :)

[jrockway]

As far as I know, no other democracy does anything like this. If the legislature authorizes spending then the agency with that budget is allowed to spend it.

[logifail]

> Congress authorizes say 10T to spend. Over the next years the president spends 7T and then the coffers run empty

I'm not sure what to understand by politicians "agreeing 10T of spending" if everyone involved knows the financing has a hard stop at 7T.

That's not agreeing 10T, that's agreeing 7T. Plus a 3T wishlist.

[lesuorac]

> if everyone involved knows the financing has a hard stop at 7T.

Well, technically they don't know there is a hard stop at 7T. Since revenue (taxes) and expenditures are very separate things it could've been at 8T or say 11T but if it was at 11T we'd have a surplus and so this conversation would've never happened.

When you pass a bill requiring the president to do something there is no requirement to justify how anything the bill will be paid for.

Similarly, you can pass a bill adjusting the tax code without explaining where the additional revenue will go to or in the case of a decrease what programs will be removed.

---

Business works very similar to this as well. Divisions are given budgets to spend but those budgets aren't in lock-step with revenue.

[logifail]

> When you pass a bill requiring the president to do something there is no requirement to justify how anything the bill will be paid for.

It could well be that pretty much everyone outside the USA is reading that description - and indeed the rest of this thread - and thinking "sorry, but in this instance the US system is broken".

> Business works very similar to this as well. Divisions are given budgets to spend but those budgets aren't in lock-step with revenue.

Umm, if revenue falls during a financial period, would corporate budgets not be adjusted? A division claiming "you handed us the budget, we're damn well going to spend it to the last cent, up to the CFO to figure out how to finance it" isn't exactly best practice.

[kelthan]

Congress does not make "just in time decisions" in the way you imply. If Congress passes a bill for some program, they agree in the bill what the program will and won't do and they estimate the costs of that program over the lifetime specified in the bill. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) does those estimates for Congress before the bill is passed. Those budget estimates are part of the bill.

A note on how Congress works for those who are not from the US: Congress, specifically the House of Representatives, has "the power of the purse", meaning that they alone have the ability to create laws that require spending money. The Senate--the other half of Congress--must also pass those bills before they are signed into law by the President, but cannot originate them. The Senate can modify them with the approval of the House, in process known as "reconciliation".

Once a bill is signed into law, the Executive Branch, headed by the President, is required to initiate (or continue) the program defined by the law, and to direct the Treasury pay the bills for that program. Neither the President nor the Treasury has the option to just ignore the parameters of the law that has been passed.

Because the CBO estimates are just that, sometimes the spending required to run the program exceeds the estimated budget, simply because the CBO cannot foresee every circumstance (war, global pandemic, inflation, etc.) In that case, the Executive and the Treasury are still required to continue to run and pay for those programs.

When the Treasure runs out of money to pay for the programs that Congress passed, it must borrow money. The amount of money that it can borrow is defined as the "debt ceiling". Once the Treasury exceeds the Debt Ceiling, Congress must authorize more money so that the Treasury can continue to pay for all of the programs that Congress has passed into law.

When Congress says they won't raise the debt ceiling they are saying "We are not willing to let the Treasury borrow money to pay for the things we told the Executive branch that they must do." But the Executive branch didn't pass the laws, Congress did. The laws that require money to be borrowed may have been passed last year, or decades ago.

If Congress really wishes to control spending (which is what is claimed as the reason not to raise the debt ceiling), then they can do so by not passing bills that require spending more money, since they are in sole control of what the Executive branch can spend money on. Which is why the debt ceiling debate is completely artificial, and not a "just in time" function. Rather it is the current Congress basically saying that they didn't like the spending passed by either themselves or previous Congresses, and they want to retroactively change the laws, and they wish to do so without having to go through the process of actually creating the laws, debating them, and passing them--usually because the spending they really disagree with is wildly popular and would not likely survive the regular legislative process.