[monero-xmr]

There is a lack of hard scientific evidence definitively proving this. However you may know in your bones that this is real, from lived experience or from people you know. Please keep that in mind when you dismiss other things that lack definitive scientific evidence. We as humans seem to pick and choose which currently unverified things to believe and which to dismiss.

[retrac]

I cannot comprehend a position of total long COVID denial, though I have encountered it online. Every virus you can think of that causes acute illness, can cause long term or even permanent damage. Sometimes rarely, sometimes often. Even the mildest common cold viruses, can, in very rare cases, be severe enough to cause pneumonia which causes scarring which leads to permanent loss of lung function. Hepatitis A is usually cleared without issue but sometimes significant liver scarring happens. The poxes can be cleared by the immune system but often immense scarring of the affected tissues happens. Viral meningitis...

For COVID to cause severe illness in a few % -- enough to kill in rare cases -- but to not cause permanent lung or heart or kidney damage etc. in some significant percent who got very sick is implausible, even incoherent with all other theories about how viral diseases cause disease.

[Nanana909]

> For COVID to cause severe illness in a few % -- enough to kill in rare cases -- but to not cause permanent lung or heart or kidney damage etc. in some significant percent who got very sick is implausible, even incoherent with all other theories about how viral diseases cause disease.

So then why do we never talk about long flu? Long meningitis? I don’t think people are in disbelief COVID can cause long term damage to specific people. Obviously that’s a possibility.

I think they don’t believe there is a specific disease called “long COVID”. Call it what it is - be that a damaged lung or heart or kidney. Hell even “post COVID symptomatic disease”. But “long COVID” strongly implies that you have a long, currently present case of COVID. That somehow just doesn’t show up on any tests. After 2 years.

[bigbillheck]

> So then why do we never talk about long flu?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2826837/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34694344/

> Long meningitis?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27105658/ https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01634...

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7587542/

[Nanana909]

Your first article:

> Lingering prenatal effects

So not “long influenza”.

“Lingering effects of influenza”, which I stated obviously can exist. Would you associate the words “long marriage” with “lingering effects of marriage”?

Not a single one of your sources used “long X” terminology. I wonder why that is? Perhaps because “long X” in the English language refers to either a large length or a large duration of time. Not “after effects”.

I suspect the authors of each paper knew this and intentionally made sure not to imply it was a continued disease. But I suppose when something is politicized people find it hard to move on, such as the COVID era.

[bigbillheck]

> I wonder why that is?

The thing about a neologism--the one that's relevant here anyway--is that it's neo, and the linear nature of time means that one would not expect to see it in use before it was coined.

[retrac]

> So then why do we never talk about long flu?

With both RSV and influenza, infection as a baby or toddler seems to increase the likelihood of asthma in later life. Do we talk about asthma?

I think it is just so ordinary, an accepted part of life, and often not thought of in terms of being caused by an identifiable pathogen, that it's not really remarkable. Sort of like the fact that viral pneumonia is what kills the very elderly -- if nothing else gets them first -- the older someone is the more likely viral pneumonia will be the cause of death, rising to around half of all deaths in the 90 yo+ demographic. RSV, rhinoviruses, influenza. We're used to it. And short of getting our influenza shots and washing our hands, there's not terribly much we can do about it.

> currently present case of COVID

Well, that's just people abusing terminology. Technically, COVID is not the virus; it's the illness caused by the virus SARS-CoV-2. Same sort of distinction as between HIV/AIDS. A person with severe AIDS who hypothetically was cured of HIV, would still have severe AIDS until/unless they manage to recover some immune function.

It is poorly named I guess. People still mix up AIDS/HIV today and I don't even bother to correct them; can't really blame them for conflating two closely related concepts.

Anyway. A popsci article from 2018: https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/31/health/flu-body-effects-partn... And if you want to dive in to it, the relevant search terms are: influenza pulmonary fibrosis

[Nanana909]

> With both RSV and influenza, infection as a baby or toddler seems to increase the likelihood of asthma in later life. Do we talk about asthma?

I think this reinforces my point succinctly. It’s not “extended RSV” or “persistent influenza”, it’s asthma.

COVID is a completely politicized term and dying on a hill to use it to describe symptoms people are stuck with after recovering from the acute disease, especially in a way that implies they’re still infected, is just - well you can see what it does.

[retrac]

Asthma induced by influenza would be about right, I think.

Much of this is novel, in having the ability to attribute to a specific viral cause, easily and cheaply and widely. This is new ground, new technology. Much of this was until recently, put up to non-specific viral infection, or even idiopathic.

We may start to re-conceive of asthma as different diseases if we could attribute the factors which went into causing a particular person's asthma. Flu-asthma, toxin-asthma, autoimmune-asthma, and COVID-asthma - and hybrid cases.

[Nanana909]

Those interested in seeing funding devoted towards the study of this would do well do steer away from the political COVID branding. And if that’s too hard, call it “post COVID disease” or something.

[cjbgkagh]

That’s not what LongCovid implies, that’s possibly referring to persistent spike proteins but that a separate thing. LongCovid specifically refers to post covid sequelae, as in not a chronic infection but the after effects from an acute infection.

Viral impairments were called ME/CFS, the main difference now is that such a large number of people got it at one time which is making it more difficult to ignore.

[Nanana909]

99.999% of the population, including those who claim they have long COVID, do not know the words “persistent spike proteins” or “post COVID sequelae”.

Therefore I assert you are incorrect, “long COVID” implies a “long case of COVID”. Similar to how no one would interpret “long marriage” to mean the after-effects of marriage.

P.S. no I will not cite a source for the statistic nor will I cite one for the sky being blue.

[cjbgkagh]

Not sure what to say other than that you are flagrantly wrong.

[Nanana909]

> Long COVID is broadly defined as signs, symptoms, and conditions that continue or develop after initial COVID-19 infection.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/long-term-effects/...

Emphasis on “Continue or develop”.

[bigbillheck]

I thought we weren't supposed to do 'shallow dismissals' on this site.

[ipqk]

We now suspect that many pre-2020 ME/CFS cases were caused by a viral infection, so in some sense it is Long-Flu or Long-RSV, but we just don't call it that.

I myself still have long-term issues from a non-Covid viral infection a few years back, probably RSV.

[rjsw]

Maybe we should talk about long flu, you can have post-viral fatigue after it, the only difference with COVID is the duration.

[Nanana909]

Wasn’t COVID a virus? So it seems like we already have a word to describe this? post-viral fatigue

[Izkata]

Exactly, it's the exact same thing under a new branding. Because of that new branding, most people seem to think it's new and unique when it really isn't.

[llm_nerd]

You are absolutely correct. Any infection has the potential to cause serious, long-term problems. Often it is our own immune system going haywire.

I don't think anyone has any problem with that notion. Severe illness is severe.

I think pushback on long covid is when it is similar to antivaxxers claims of vax injuries -- where everything that anyone suffers after the event is lazily traced back to a single source, whether it's "got vaccinated" or "had covid". If someone who had a mild case of covid now attributes every mental state, malaise, physical discomfort, headaches, trouble concentrating, etc, to "long covid", it should properly earn skepticism.

[giraffe_lady]

It makes sense to me unfortunately.

If some small but significant portion of people will be disabled by this then what are we doing going to work, eating in restaurants? What does it mean about me if I stay home working but still get food delivered? Do gas station employees get sick days? If repeated exposure as children risks disability in adulthood then what are we doing sending our kids to school? In a world where being unable to work long-term means deprivation, misery and likely a preventable death? No, it can't be true.

Much more comfortable to believe we wouldn't do this than to confront what it says about us that we have, or what we would have to change to prevent it.

[1over137]

>If some small but significant portion of people will be disabled by this then what are we doing going to work, eating in restaurants?

We are living life. Driving your car is doing much more damage to your fellow man than someone eating at a restaurant.

[giraffe_lady]

Ya that's why I don't do that either.

[henearkr]

You get food delivered but the delivery staff keep their mask on, you put your mask before seeing them, and all is perfectly fine.

Mask is underrated. Everybody wanted to get rid of it. But why.

[strken]

I think it's less "this is bullshit" and more "this is receiving far more attention than long influenza or long any other infection". We've fixated on long COVID to a degree that might not be productive and which - if it has a psychosomatic component in some cases - might be causing more long COVID.

[spondylosaurus]

> "this is receiving far more attention than long influenza or long any other infection"

Yeah, because a loooot of people have caught COVID in the past three years, lol. There was a whole pandemic about it.

[strken]

There are about a billion influenza cases every year. This is exactly the attention I'm referring to, where you know a lot about the 750 million COVID cases since 2020 but nothing about the more numerous influenza ones.

[whimsicalism]

> We've fixated on long COVID to a degree that might not be productive and which - if it has a psychosomatic component in some cases - might be causing more long COVID.

Very charitable phrasing.

[j45]

Just because science hasn’t proven something or understood it doesn’t mean it’s not real or doesn’t exist.

If we lived solely by this definition there could be a lot of obvious things in the brain that could be canceled.

I understand your point but science is usually playing catch up with covid because it’s been so fast and far out of the gate.

Just because we don’t have the scientific understanding doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

In case you’re curious, lots comes out about long covid regularly.

“Gene linked to long COVID found in analysis of thousands of patients The first genome-wide search for long-COVID risk factors could pave the way for larger studies.”

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-023-02269-2

“‘Brain fog’ of long Covid comparable to ageing 10 years, study finds Symptoms of infection can last two years”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/21/long-covid-bra...

[robnado]

Following my first infection with COVID, I developed mononucleosis as the infection reactivated the Epstein-Barr virus in my body, which gave me many of these symptoms. I have since found many scientific articles that discuss a link between the Epstein-Barr virus and long COVID. I'm always surprised that the Epstein-Barr virus is rarely talked about in popular news media when long covid is brought up.

[whimsicalism]

It's the CFS-ization of the long covid research, which is not a good thing.

[artimaeis]

I think you mean there's a lack of broad consensus among scientists as to the root cause. There's scientific evidence aplenty. What constitutes as evidence of illness, if not ill people?

[whimsicalism]

Sure, but I think for the bulk of reported long covid symptoms, there is a dispute over whether the cause is more related to post-virus sequelae or perceived infection by covid.

Long covid is likely a combination of both types, but there is evidence that a significant proportion is of the latter form.

[AndrewKemendo]

>We as humans seem to pick and choose which currently unverified things to believe and which to dismiss

As it was in the beginning and forever will be

It's physically impossible for humans to agree on an "objective truth" because human sense perception (at least with respect to differentiation of truth claims) is not uniform and the variety of human experience - despite variance being relatively small when measured (eg. normally distributed) - is dis-joint enough that insignificant variance in conceptions have historically led to wide scale clan focused war.

For example the theological difference between protestants and catholics is minute when plotted against all other theistic conceptions. Yet that difference is large enough (within those two groups) to drive violent, inter-generational, centuries long conflict.

It's actually pretty interesting when you start paying attention to how groups and subgroups work together or fight respectively in different contexts. I have three kids who will torture each other at home, but they clan up and protect their own or alternatively cooperate, when in social situations with other clans present.

This is an intractable and non-differentiable feature of human society and we want to assume that it's vestigial when in fact it's the core conceptual drive that creates society - for better or worse.

[iainctduncan]

come again? Long Covid has been documented in numerous top scientific journals. My understanding from my scientist friends is quite the opposite. It is well established.

[whimsicalism]

The cause is not well established at all, similarly to CFS/ME. Also similar to CFS, the research has become very politicized and subject to media scrutiny and researchers do not feel comfortable exploring certain research questions around the CFS-likeness of many long covid cases.

[thenerdhead]

There is hard empirical evidence. Plenty of scientific evidence now coming out as well given its been a few years to research initial cohorts. But to wait to verify scientific evidence is just foolish when this is affecting a grand scale of human beings.

[eggy]

Not denying a phenomenon here, so the "Long Covid" moniker doesn't irk me, but I think you hear more "Long Covid" than "Long Flu" because of the lockdowns, masking, school shutdowns, and ongoing culture wars. I also believe the societal measures taken in reaction to Covid has caused a lot of mental anguish and illness that could be part of the "Long Covid" syndrome or phenomenon. Unless a very acute or severe infection was experienced with possible organ or lung damage, I am guessing a lot is the zeitgeist and general malaise of post-Covid modern society.

[thenerdhead]

Here's more context as to why "long covid" became a term.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7539940/

[eggy]

Thanks for that link. Very interesting. The role of social media in making patients an "epistemic authority" and reversing the normal arrow or flow from doctors and scientists. I like that "long haulers" came from a patient truck driver's cap!

[OneLeggedCat]

Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones.

[OO000oo]

Additionally, mathematics and scientific evidence are no match for the influence of power. The tendency of capital accumulation under capitalism is exceedingly straightforward, but the life of one trying to find peace with that reality is too painful to bear.

[downWidOutaFite]

False. There is tons of hard evidence about long covid including in this article.

If I were you I would try to examine why false beliefs are being accepted into my model of the world.