[whalabi]

?

They developed an entirely new platform for EVs [1]

They started a subsidiary for self driving with around a thousand employees [2]

They released EVs, the bZ3, the bZ4x, the Lexus RZ

Current battery technology is a huge reason why people don't switch to EVs. Everyone I know talks about the charging times, needing to find a supercharger route when going long distance.

A 10 minute charge on that massive range would convince me to switch easily.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_New_Global_Architecture...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woven_by_Toyota,_Inc.

[panick21_]

> They started a subsidiary for self driving with around a thousand employees [2]

Lots of 'self driving' investments have invested a huge amount without much benefit.

> They released EVs, the bZ3, the bZ4x, the Lexus RZ

Their total EV sales are tiny. The bZ4x is universally mocked at one of the worst EV in class and not actually cheaper then the competition.

> Current battery technology is a huge reason why people don't switch to EVs.

And yet huge amounts of people are switching to EV and the actual limit is batteries supply limitations not battery size.

[pornel]

Hyundai/Kia needs about 20 minutes of charging per 3 hours of driving.

The important difference from ICE refuelling is that you don't have to be by the car when it charges.

I've taken road trips across Europe, and it's been fine. 20min is about as much as I need for a bathroom break and to get a coffee.

[rexf]

> The important difference from ICE refuelling is that you don't have to be by the car when it charges.

That's a disingenuous take. ICE fueling takes significantly less time. So it's not an advantage that you can take a 20-30 minute break away from your car when you can just gas up your car in a few minutes (attended) and be on the road again.

[audunw]

I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve just quickly filled the gas tank and kept driving. I know all people are different but I suspect not people are closer to me. I know many people who never do long road trips at all.

What I have experienced is having to take 10-15 minutes to find a gas station somewhere around my destination to fill up for the next day. I’ve also had plenty of stops where I’ve stopped for food or drinks and not filled gasoline because there wasn’t any gas station right there.

What’s remarkable with EVs is that on road trips I never find myself going somewhere I wouldn’t be going anyway. Instead of driving to a gas station at my destination, I just park at the hotel/resort I’m staying and charge right there over night.

In Norway almost every road side McDonalds have some fast chargers. As a father that’s where we tend to stop, and where we probably would have taken the kids for a break anyway. If we filled gasoline, even if there was a gas station right next by, that’d be an annoying distraction from what we want to be doing.

As a father with an EV I don’t recognise the situation in the article at all. Maybe Norway and even Denmark (where we took our road trip last year.. they’re a bit behind Norway) is ahead of USA in infrastructure. But it’s not that much ahead. 5 years at most.

Family road trips in EVs is fantastic because you’re encouraged to take breaks at places with playgrounds where kids can burn off some physical energy. And since the car is charging at the same time it doesn’t feel like a waste and you don’t feel any mental pressure to keep driving to get to the destination as fast as possible.

[brandonagr2]

It is an advantage when you were going to take a break away from your car anyway. Fueling up, and then parking, and then getting coffee / food / break means you spend just as much time stopped with an ICE during a road trip as you do with an EV.

[gnicholas]

Hyundai/Kia do have great maximum charge rates...but the rub is finding a charger that supports those speeds, is not broken, and is not occupied. Is this trivial in Europe? It sure isn't here in the US (even in CA, which has relatively higher adoption rates of EVs).

[zlsa]

It is trivial in the US if you're able to use Tesla's supercharger network.

[KennyBlanken]

Telsa's proposed, future v4 standard is still only capable of 250kW and meanwhile CCS stations have been deployed for years now that can do 400kW, with 700kW chargers being demonstrated.

It's an outdated, proprietary standard in both form and function, even if Tesla claims it's a public standard; they exert total business control over the plug and their charger network. There's no way they'll allow a random car to plug into a supercharger ('safety' and such), no way they'll allow any other payment methods on their network. There's no way they'll support configuring your Tesla to work with third party NACS chargers and payment systems.

The only chargers that exist with NACS connectors are in one country and controlled by Tesla. The only cars with NACS plugs are (at the moment) Teslas and the only proposed additional users are companies that have signed agreements with Tesla.

This is why it's so infuriating that Ford, GM, and Tesla did what they did. They just effectively killed CCS, and thus dealt a major blow to EV adoption in the US for the sake of a market share grab. 800v architecture meant EVs finally could lay claim to being practical for long distance charging. Plug in at a rest stop, everyone hits the bathrooms, maybe a snack, stretch their legs, and the car is nearly full again. A lot of errands and such fit into the 18-20 minute window a nearly-full-charge takes. "NACS" can't offer anywhere near a 18 minute 10-to-80 charge.

The US version of CCS is far from perfect; the weight of the cable causes connection issues due to the poor mechanical design of the socket, and we never should have had a unique CCS connector from Europe to begin with. But Tesla's "North American Charging Standard" is outdated and their supercharger network in addition to being outdated has been woefully underfunded and undersized for a while; with Ford and Chevy piling onto the network, that's going to get even worse.

What's even more infuriating is that in Europe, there is no such thing as "Superchargers", because the EU forced Tesla to use CCS2. And meanwhile, congress hasn't even noticed that Tesla just effectively captured the US EV charging market.

Ask yourself this: what could possibly go wrong giving the world's richest man - an unhinged narcissist to boot - exclusive control over how electric vehicles are charged in the US?

[redserk]

This is incorrect. I’m not sure where you’re finding 250kW as the max for a V4 Supercharger but they’ve been shown to charge at more power in the wild.

https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/19/23689247/tesla-v4-superch...

And while not deployed in the wild, NACS supports up to 1MW with a forward and backward compatible larger 1000V connector in the NACS spec: https://www.tesla.com/support/charging-product-guides#techni...

[brandonagr2]

"CCS stations have been deployed for years now that can do 400kW"

There is no reliable CCS network in existence in the US. Can you show me a video of someone using these mythical chargers at 400kw to take a long road trip?

Ask yourself this: what could possibly go wrong depending on Electrify America who only exist due to court ordered action and have no incentive to actually do a good job?

[Dylan16807]

CCS1 has no advantages over the Tesla plug. If we're not going to use CCS2, we should use NACS.

You're wrong about the limits. v3 is 250kW, and the limiting factor is the vehicle voltage. Take it up to 800 volts and that's already 400kW. Pushing the amps above 500 is possible for both connectors, with similar levels of difficulty.

[gnicholas]

But that’s not compatible with Hyundais or Kias, which is what GP was talking about.

[r00fus]

More and more so it appears that the US is falling way behind the EU (and probably China) in terms of charging.

150kW charging is common in France. I hear it’s even better in other EU countries.

[gnicholas]

My impression was that Hyundai/Kia EVs can take much more than 150kW — more like 350kW. Since 350kW chargers aren't yet common, I don't consider that an advantage when thinking about purchasing. There are plenty of EVs that charge in the neighborhood of 150kW, and a lot more chargers that are able to provide that throughput.

[pornel]

They peak at ~245kW. Charging from a 150kW charger isn't too bad either, because they can sustain that speed most of the time (unlike cars advertising 150kW max where it is only a peak of the curve, and the average is less).

For road trips charging speed is IMHO even more important than the range. My breaks take 20-25 min typically anyway, but a 45-minute car would keep me waiting.

[pornel]

Yes, 300kW chargers from Ionity and Fastned are pretty common. FR, NL, DE have especially good coverage.

[TheRealSteel]

I just drove from Brisbane to Melbourne in one weekend (1,800km in one weekend) -- to pick up a model 3 I bought interstate, actually -- and I assure you, charging was not an issue. The car automatically adds supercharger stops to the map and I didn't need to stay at one for longer than half an hour.

Okay, Toyota has technically released EVs. Still a half assed effort, and I think still a fair criticism - I can't buy one, as they don't sell it in Australia, and they barely promote them. They're not behind EVs in any meaningful way.

I mean, the fact that I just bought an EV and have never even heard of any of Toyota's says something. No mention of them on their Australian website. Never heard of them on social media either, and I'm constantly watching videos about EVs.

Kodak released digital cameras eventually. Blackberry released Android phones eventually. Didn't mean much, it was too little too late -- they ignored the writing on the wall for too long.

[meling]

Yeah, but not until 2027 or so it seems, and then you’ll have to drag around an ic engine as well. Seems a bit of a waste for a car with that much battery range.

My dad just bought the bZ4x, I’m not particularly impressed, but that’s just my opinion. My dad likes it, mainly because he wasn’t comfortable using the touch screen while driving to adjust things like windshield wipers etc, which I think is a good decision for him. But what poor marketing department came up with an unpronounceable name like that.

[Eldandan]

Ah, yes, the renowned bz4x, or busy forks for the initiated.

[nonsense_stream]

It's called "the captcha" in China

[KRAKRISMOTT]

You forgot their most famous joint venture clusterfuck

Made in Japan. Designed by Tesla in California.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV

[tnel77]

For me, it’s the price and look. I just want a normal looking vehicle that doesn’t cost $80k. An EV Toyota Tacoma for like $30-40k would be amazing.

[duped]

Car manufacturers can't make enough EVs to keep up with demand, so you might not be talking to the right people.

[hnburnsy]

Depends on the car\manufacture...

Unsold electric cars are piling up on dealer lots

https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-pi...

[duped]

Having tried to buy one recently I think the discrepancy is that dealers wasted their allotments on high-trim EVs expecting people to be willing to pay 15-20k premiums just to drive an EV. If you want a lower trim model you are going to be waiting weeks to months for it to arrive.