[ghaff]

Grocery stores and others absolutely still need cashier checkout. If I have a handful of items I can barcode swipe and even a couple pieces of produce that's fine. But they simply aren't designed for a full shopping cart which includes a ton of non-barcoded items.

Ditto with home repair stores. Scan a new smoke detector? Sure. Check out a bunch of lumber etc. That would be no.

In my experience, most stores are finding a reasonable balance. And one of my cheaper grocery stores doesn't use self-checkout at all for now. Which is just fine.

[techsupporter]

> In my experience, most stores are finding a reasonable balance.

I hope you're right but this hasn't been the case at the grocery stores around me. QFC (a Kroger-owned brand in the Pacific Northwest) has, at least at two I usually frequent, stopped staffing checklanes after 8 or 9pm. It's self-checkout only. These are at stores that have a lot of signage advertising that "summer hours are here, all locations open until 1am!"

I normally shop around 9 or 10pm and there has historically been at least a "push this button to ask someone to come to the in-person method". Much as I like self-checkout, I don't like doing it with a full cart of groceries. Both recent times, I was told rather bluntly that a full cart was my problem.

With service like that, I'd rather just go to the Amazon spyware grocery store. At least I can put everything in a bag myself and they're open until 11pm.

[Denvercoder9]

Self-service checkout at the store exit is such a wasted opportunity. In my (non-USA) grocery store I can scan product with my phone while I'm walking through the store and putting them in the cart; afterwards I only have to pay. Not having to take everything from my cart, scan it and put it back saves quite some time, even compared to cashiers scanning. There's also a handheld scanner for people that can't or don't want to use their smartphone.

[alex_young]

I used such a system when I lived in Switzerland, and found it much easier for the reasons you mentioned.

I did have an odd conversation with someone at work who warned me that sometimes they check your basket to make sure you’ve scanned everything before leaving, which I thought was an odd way to tell someone you like to shoplift. Anyway.

[techsupporter]

We used to have that, at QFC/Kroger funny enough.

They got rid of it because few people used it (I tried it and it was very clunky) and replaced it with more self checkout lanes.

[bobthepanda]

Right, but the issue there seems to be execution, which admittedly non-tech firms dislike investing in.

[Dylan16807]

> But they simply aren't designed for a full shopping cart which includes a ton of non-barcoded items.

Huh. Everything at my grocery store either has a barcode or is produce that needs to be weighed, so there's no speed advantage for a cashier.

And they've gone through different sizes of self-checkout, some of which actually had more room than the cashier checkouts.

[codetrotter]

> produce that needs to be weighed

In Spain and France (and probably other countries too) they’ve been doing something that’s pretty neat in regards to the fruits and vegetables since long before self-checkout even became a thing, but which helps a lot now with self-checkout as well.

When you go to the fruits and vegetables section of the store, a lot of these stores have a scale there with a printer.

So when you pick the fruits and vegetables, you weigh and print a label for them there and then.

And then when you get to the checkout, you just scan the item.

You kind of have to experience this in person to see why that works well, but it does :)

[function_seven]

> You kind of have to experience this in person to see why that works well, but it does :)

Nope. Your description of it is enough. This sounds like a great solution to the bulk goods issue (produce, nuts, beans, etc.)

I love self checkout at Home Depot. It’s just a wireless barcode scanner. No scales or annoying “unknown item in the bagging area” admonishments. Just scan scan scan scan done. You can leave all the items in the cart.

Uniqlo’s self checkout is also cool. All RFID. You dump the clothes into the bin and they instantly tally up on the screen. I didn’t know this the first time I used it, so it was magical.

[dfox]

I remember that in 1991 there was an article (IIRC paid PR by Siemens) how the checkout by RFID is the next big thing that will happen the following year. 20 years later it started to really pop up in the stores in the form of EPC Gen2 RFID for customer-facing applications. The obvious common usecase are libraries, as there is defacto standard extension for exactly that application (the tags can also work as EAS tags that can be enabled/disabled over the EPC radio interface), another huge application are clothing and sporting goods retailers. From extensive playing with the technology I had concluded that the reliability leaves a many things to be wished for, but apparently in these applications either the amount of distinct items is small enough or missing few of them do not really matter (if you scan a whole pallet of EPC tagged items you are bound to miss some of them and thus it is only good as an approximation, if you scan a shopping cart it is probably more reliable. Reason for that is on one hand the physics of the radio interface that can be shadowed by somewhat surprising kinds of objects, like people, and the other is that there is a ridiculously large, but still finite amount of tags that can be de-conflicted and read in a given time).

[r00fus]

Decathlon in France also has RFID bin + digital readout. It is quite magical. It's interesting how much coaching the attendants did so that we would be comfortable (I guess we looked clueless).

[codetrotter]

Yeah same with Decathlon in Spain too. My mind was literally blown when I saw this because I did not know until we were at the checkout.

[azherebtsov]

Same thing in Poland. I’m very surprised that this is not a common standard. I saw rage same in Austria, Italy… basically EU countries. I’m very surprised this is not common in US which is usually known as a place where many retail technologies have emerged. By the way, the plastic bag must not be wasted. If I take a few bananas I do not take any plastic bag, I just put a sticker on one of them, and then drop them all into bag area after scanning so that total weight matches expected. Same applies to many fruits which do not need a separate plastic bag (apples, oranges, …).

[bombcar]

In america we seem to be headed toward individually wrapping everything in plastic.

I'm not going to be surprised when I see individual onions in plastic, or blueberries by the berry. Potatoes and corn have already fallen.

[dfox]

This was common in Czech Republic, but the large stores switched back to weighting at the cashier checkout. I assume that the way how the consumer-facing scales are connected to the rest of the store's system has something to do with the stores wanting to eliminate it (different vendors and the backend interface typically involves shuffling CSV files around over FTP or SMB). Obviously, with the variations of borrow a scanner (Typically Zebra MC17/MC18/PS20)/scan by mobile application they had to reintroduce the scales back, so now they are somewhat stuck in supporting both of these processes. And well, I became so accustomed to scanning things myself as I put them into the cart that for me and large grocery purchases the only real alternative for that is not going to the store at all and ordering it online.

[dkjaudyeqooe]

This is how this actually works:

1. Put product in bag

2. At the checkout, suddenly remember that you have to label it yourself

3. Go back to the fruit and veg section

4. Try to find the 2 to 4 digit number that denotes said product

5. Wait your turn to use one of the two scales, more usually the single functioning one

6. Realise you've forgotten the number and go find it again

7. Repeat steps 5 and 6 as required.

8. Print label and return to checkout

It is the antithesis of neat, and just because they don't want to install scales at the checkout.

Of course after a few years they actually got scales at the checkout, probably because all checkout systems had them and they were no longer and option, but now the cheap and barely functioning self-checkout systems have no (functioning) scales, so back to self-labeling hell.

[r00fus]

France (at least all the places I've shopped) omits steps 6 & 7 because the scale has item lookup.

Also if they see you're a clueless foreigner, they will have an attendant go label them for you while you're in line - keeping you uncomfortable so you won't screw up again.

[vel0city]

I'm in a market where a US grocery brand likes to trial technology at their stores. They had some produce UPC generation stations there for about a year and eventually got rid of them. I asked some people at the store about it, and they essentially gave the same reason. People didn't understand it, didn't want to deal with it, etc. So most customers just ignored them and the checkout counter still had to deal with it anyways.

[macNchz]

The NYC area grocery chain Fairway–of which most locations have sadly closed after a bankruptcy in 2020–took this concept a step further with a mobile checkout app, you could weigh your produce and enter it into the app as you shopped (as well as scan package barcodes), then pay directly in the app and walk out. A clerk would sometimes audit your bags, but it was so much better than the typical American supermarket self-checkout.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/fairway-market-mobile-checkout...

[Dylan16807]

We have that in my US grocery, I just worded it that way because it doesn't affect the point I was making.

Though personally I use those scales but not their printer. I scan every item as I add it to my cart, and those scales display a bar code too.

[badrequest]

American produce aisles have these as well, but now I have to create the waste of a printed sticker and most likely a bag as well to get groceries I could have otherwise purchased by weight.

[bombcar]

I wish a grocery store would understand "tare" correctly and let me have barcoded and labelled reusable containers - fill the potato bag with potatoes, scan and weight the filled bag and be on my way.

[barrkel]

In the UK, the self checkout machine has a weighing scale built in, and you select the type of produce while it's on the scales during checkout, much like a cashier might. I prefer it to the code system you find on the continent.

[bombolo]

And you have to find your item among hundreds of items

[Cyberdog]

> Huh. Everything at my grocery store either has a barcode or is produce that needs to be weighed, so there's no speed advantage for a cashier.

An experienced cashier knows what side and corner of the box of Wheaties the bar code is on without having to look, and has the produce code for the bananas memorized. If I have a lot of things, I always go to the cashier rather than the self-checkout. They can always do it faster than I can myself.

[azherebtsov]

When self checkout desks were setup in my grocery store, there were 2 cashiers and 3 self service points. The queues to cashiers are different, but there is a single queue to self service. After a few observations I found that longer queue to selfservice usually goes faster. Probably because of two reasons:

1. There is one more cashdesk in there 2. The payments are done by card, whereas there those who pays in cash to the cashiers

In general cashier, of course, faster than a customer in operating goods. But there are other slow processes involved. Like: loading goods on the tape (not present in selfservice), paying with cash (some advanced selfservice desks have that though), packing goods into bag (could be done right after scanning in selfservice)

P.s: the location of a barcode on a box almost does not matter with a good scanners doing scans in two dimensions

[bombcar]

I've noticed the self-checkouts seem to have some safeties in place which the normal cashiered checkouts don't (because they assume the cashier is trained). For example, if I buy ten cans of the same soup, the cashier's system seems to let her scan one can ten times, whereas I can't do the same on the self-checkout, even the Walmart ones that don't care about the weight being placed. They have a "prevent double-scan" delay built in that is long enough I may as well grab the next can.

[executive]

bananas is 4011 almost everywhere. an experienced cashier has the code for ginger root memorized.

[ghaff]

I'm going to have to squint to read the number on the vegetable which is sometimes there. Might have to do a lookup. It doesn't have a barcode. There's no real place to put a shopping cart. I'm having to take out items, find their price, and bag them. Something will probably go wrong which means the person watching over the self-checkout will have to come over and do something.

I can do it. But it's a pain for a large order.

[gorlilla]

Maybe it's just because self-checkout has always played into my intorvertedness. But i have become very effecient at self checkout no matter how much i buy.

I shop for myself, spouse and 4 adolescent/teenage children. I can typically ring myself out faster and more orderly than the cashier.

Most cashiers are super wasteful with bags and just pack things illogically. These aren't the trained baggers of yester-year afterall.

Either way, my favorite way to shop at my local wholesale warehouse has been the app which lets you ring up as you load up the cart, pay and simply walk out the door.

Cashiers are not in fact still necessary, the self-checkout lanes are merely a stop-gap yo better automation.

[saurik]

This "balance" still cuts out a lot of employees and still removes the social interaction for most use cases. My local Home Depot, FWIW, still has a person to do checkout... but I think it is only one person, not even two: the rest of the checkout opportunities are self-checkout.

Also, btw: it isn't so bad to do self-checkout of large items as they have a wireless handheld barcode scanner at each self-checkout stand; it isn't like you are having to lift each item and place it on the platform. There is something similar now at Target, and I routinely self-checkout large/heavy furnishings.

[bombcar]

Target and Home Depot have some of the best, but that may be because the anti-theft is tuned all the way down because they're in high-trust areas. Neither seems to complain much about the weights on the scale.

[gnufied]

I would say it is getting harder. Walmart for example I think has switched to largely self-checkout with some helpers thrown in.

Other stores where had more than 3 or 4 human manned lanes, now have just 1 most of the time.

[bombcar]

My local Walmart often has a line waiting for the ocean of self-checkouts whilst they have two or three humanned checkouts empty.

I prefer the human ones because they have the bag carousel which is faster.

[morkalork]

I watched someone try taking a freaking step ladder through the self check out and the machine scanned it okay but then wouldn't proceed to the next item or cash out because "item must be placed on scale". Really?

[bombcar]

It really comes down to how the store has them tuned; one local grocery store's system freaks out if a fly lands on the scale, whereas the local Walmart doesn't seem to care if the weight is ten pounds more or less than what it thinks it should be.

[hooverd]

Self checkout shoppers should be timed just like cashiers. I swear everyone else using the self chicken are moving in slow motion.

[ghaff]

Charging self-checkout shoppers will go over really well I'm sure. Let us know how it goes.

[8note]

You make it look like a discount for going fast

[rcme]

Order groceries online. It's much more convenient for large orders.

[function_seven]

I used to to this when my Vons operated it’s own fleet. Then they switched to instacart and it went dramatically downhill. Cold items sitting in their hot trunk, 4-hour delivery windows, and an order that just never arrived.

The Teamsters did a good job. The underpaid gig workers don’t. (And frankly, I’m not sure I blame them.)

[bombcar]

I split the difference and order for pickup - the local store holds them in the proper equipment until I arrive (at least at Walmart).

The convenience store, however, puts milk on a shelf so you better be there when they say it's ready (ordering when I leave from home works perfectly, and they throw free Doritos in for some reason).

[rcme]

Yea I definitely wouldn’t use Instacart. The incentives aren’t aligned between the store, picker, and customer.

[ghaff]

I don't have great options where I live and both my nearby grocery stores are pretty good with cashier checkout. I have a car so shopping for larger orders isn't really an issue.

[rcme]

Do you have a Whole Foods? For basically the same amount of time it takes to make your grocery list, you can have your groceries delivered. This saves the shopping time and the driving time.

[ghaff]

I don't think close enough to deliver unless it's changed--about 40 minutes away. And I can't/wouldn't want to do a complete grocery shopping at Whole Foods anyway.

Used Peapod once upon a time when I was on crutches for months and dropped it as soon as I could walk again.

[klyrs]

I got a cake delivered upside down. So convenient.

[bombcar]

Free upside down cake! Sounds like a winner.

(I only trust grocery delivery for things in impervious packaging or impossible to screw up).

[klyrs]

It wasn't free! And yeah, it wasn't my idea to put a cake into the grocery order. I also don't trust anybody else to pick out fresh fruit & veg for me.

[bombcar]

It should have been free after rotation, but often the hassle of complaining to get a refund is too much for me to bother.

Unless I’m filled with rage.